US and UK murder – rate and weapon (updated)

This piece contains updated statistics for my most-read post. The comments under that post have been coming steadily since 2007.

In the US – population 311.5 million (1) – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009 (2), a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000 (3). Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm.

In the UK – population 56.1 million (4) – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12 (5), a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm (6).

References

(1) United States Census Bureau (undated). State and Country Quick Facts. Available from: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

(2) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 310. Murder Victims – Circumstances and Weapons Used or Cause of Death: 2000-2009. Available from http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdf

(3) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 306. Crimes and Crime Rates by Type of Offence: 1980-2009. Available from:  http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0306.pdf

(4) Office for National Statistics (2011). 2011 Census Home. Available from: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/index.html

(5) Home Office (2012). Historical Crime Data. Available from: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/historical-crime-data/

(6) Home Office (2010). Home Office Statistical Bulletin. Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2008/09. Available from: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110.pdf

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181 thoughts on “US and UK murder – rate and weapon (updated)

  1. While, like his other films, Mike Moore’s film “Bowling for Columbine” finishes up going over the top and undermining his otherwise impeccable argument, it does make this point exceedingly well. As “Flesh” notes, the UK (where I live) has a satisfyingly low murder rate, while the USA, among the democracies with a high standard of living, has a depressingly high one. Moore asks the usual questions re firearms: i.e., Japan was highly militaristic, but has a low firearms murder rate; Germany caused two world wars, but ditto to Japan, while Canada has as many firearms in private hands as people, but a very low rate of…(you guessed it).

    Most social scientists (of whom I used to be one: when still employed, I was a sociologist) would point to the “right to bear arms” clause of the US Constitution (or the appropriate amendment, if not in the original document) and the ramifications of that. After all, in the other countries (with the possible exception of Canada) we might mention, the private citizen has no right to own firearms, although a few may, depending on the law, be able to keep firearms on their own property (e.g., gamekeepers, employed to manage wildlife). This does mean that the temptation to use firearms is much reduced, if only because legal ownership is much reduced.

    This argument could (and probably will) go on for much longer, unless and until US governments, State and Federal, grasp the nettle and find a way of getting those firearms out of the hands of private citizens.

    Two chances: fat and slim.

    BTW, that UK population figure relates to England and Wales: it does not include the populations of Scotland and Northern Ireland. It’s “the United Kingdom of Great Britain [meaning England, Scotland & Wales] and Northern Ireland”. Adding the “other two” (no insult to anyone living in Scotland or Northern Ireland intended) would add something over 10 million to the total.

    Bet it wouldn’t alter the statistics significantly.

  2. In order to argue that we need to get legal guns out of killers, don’t we have to know how many of these murders were committed by persons legally allowed to own them? I wonder what the rate of murder by firearm by legal gun
    owners is.

  3. If the argument is that guns should be outlawed, then a more relevant statistic to make that case would be the number of legally owned guns used in homicides. I wonder how much the rate of usage would change if that were factored in.

  4. The thinking goes: guns don’t kill people; people kill people. Great! So if we were to remove the gun related homicides from the total and then look at the rates for the 2 countries/regions, the US rate is a lot closer to the UK (about 1.5 times the UK rate instead of 4-5 times, if my math is correct). I suppose these stats show that this thinking is true to some extent i.e. folks in the US are 1.5 times more likely to be killers than their friends in the UK. But it also shows the significant impact that guns have on the overall homicide rate.

  5. The question is not whether guns are owned legally or illegally. the problem is the accessibility of guns. if they were less accessible, there would be less gun murders in the US. there are more guns than people in the us – some are bound to get into the wrong hands

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  7. Switzerland has the highest per capita gun ownership in any developed country so it’s a societal issue more than access to guns is the issue.

  8. One thing your “stats” do not show is that on percentage you are more likely to be the victim of a crime in the U.K. then you are in the U.S..

    What we have in the U.S. is not a “Gun Problem” we have a complete failure in our mental health industry. We have stigmatized the concept of institutionalization to the point where we have closed most of our long term mental health facilities. We have made ourselves feel warm and fuzzy by declaring our schools “Gun Free Zones” without understanding the concept that there are bad men out there with guns meaning to harm those in vulnerable, target rich environments.

    On the same day of this atrocity, a knife wielding madman in China sliced and stabbed 20 school kids with a knife. Regardless whether or not these children lost their lives, they had their innocence stolen from them yesterday. They will now have to live their lives in fear because a societal government controlled system failed to protect them.

    I work in high risk areas in Chicago, soon because of our appeals court in the U.S. I will be able to conceal carry in the city of Chicago. Why is this important? Because the bad guys are already armed.

  9. Don’t understand what significance being a victim of crime has to do with this. This is about a specific type of crime: murder.

    The stats clearly show you do have a gun problem. 67% of the murders were due to guns in the US vs less than 1% in the UK based on the numbers in this post.

    Sure the Chinese incident occurred; but how many of these types of incidents have occurred in China vs the US. Interesting also that you would compare the US society to the Chinese. Would have thought the UK might be a more representative comparison.

  10. More research must be done. I have a friend that grew up in Chile and they have one of the lowest rates (obviously they are smaller than USA), but the protection and upbringing holds people accountable. Our society is as such that so many people don’t hold others accountable. We can look at the video/Music, T.V./Media, etc. industry at partial fault. Then factor in the legislators with passage of some stupid laws that keep things broad & vague because here in Rhode Island they are mostly attorneys in the Legislature and benefit in many ways. I live in a State that allows illegals to go to our schools, colleges, full benefits and no background checks there. Yet, in most of the news here….it’s fatigued/mentally ill people that cause harm. Our homelessness here in RI is one of the highest in the country and stats reflect approx. 44% are mentally ill and are NOT getting the services they need. We have become an inhumane, disconnected and destructive nation without clear strategy of how to get it back. The citizens of Denmark, the happiest country, have the most leisure time available per day, at 16.06 hours. The U.S. ranks 11th in life satisfaction, just missing the top 10. This suggests that while some of these categories may impact happiness, they do not guarantee it. Despite its above-average score, the U.S. has the highest rate of disposable income in the OECD and an extremely high rate of self-reported good health. Meanwhile, the U.S. has a particularly low life expectancy for developed nations, which at 78.7 years is worse than 26 other developed nations. The U.S. also has a low job security rate and a relatively high long-term unemployment rate.

    Read more: The Happiest Countries in the World – 24/7 Wall St. http://247wallst.com/2012/05/22/the-happiest-countries-in-the-world-2/#ixzz2FEfdJ6S4

  11. Friday’s massacure here in Connecticut at an Elementary school (grades 1-4) is unbearable. I cannot even watch it. It was their weekend to be with their dad this weekend and I have been missing them, needing to hug them. USA has seen many many of these school shootings over the last 10 years and if we keep doing what we have always done – the outcome will be the same.

  12. Exactly. Except for the part about “mental health industry”. I’d say 99% of the problem is poor parenting.

    I graduated in ’98. That same year I was telling my principal about a rifle I’d recently purchased. We walked out to my truck where he held and admired it. We then walked to his car where he showed me his .45. There were no mass shootings at my school, we would have ended the problem as soon as it began.

    Gun Free Zones are only safe for the shooter.

    If only one of those teachers had a hand gun and a little training, the whole tragedy would have gone much differently.

  13. China has suffered seven mass school attacks in the past two years, all at the hands of bladed tools/weapons. Also, Britain’s rate-of-violence is five times higher than that of the U.S. (This includes but is not limited to attempted murder, rape, sodomy, all forms of assault, aggravated burglary, robbery, car jackings, etc.). Also of note, how many incidents in the UK overall involve Molotov cocktails and bombs vs. the U.S.? You’re more likely to be blown up in the United Kingdom than you are in the United States. FYI- In terms of causes of death, homicides in the United States account for 0.4% of annual numbers. Within that number, gun related homicides account for approx. 0.24%. So out of all/total annual deaths within the U.S., 99.76% of them are non-firearms related.

  14. there are about 300 million guns in the usa and in 2007 there was about 9000 homicides. lets say that all 9000 shooters used legal guns. that means about 0.1% of legally owned guns kill people. but according to USR Carolyn McCarthy (D) NY, “Congress finds and declares that 1) In the United States, the black market is the source of 90 percent of guns used in gun crimes.” (Source: The gun Trafficing Prevention Act of 2009.) so it is actually much less!

  15. the most popular murder weapon in the uk is knives, just as it is in other countries where guns are banned/restricted.

  16. TheTruth, you’re sounding a bit polemical. And you don’t tell us where you’re getting your information from. You’re not expecting us to just take your word for it, surely?

  17. Michael Moore is a hack, he hasn’t made a single documentary in his life. He distorts facts. I suggest you watch “Michael Moore Hates America” which is done by a guy who goes around trying to interview Michael Moore and debunks a large number of his “factual arguments” he makes in his movies. In fact, Michael Moore isn’t even from Flint, MI.

  18. I am 76 years old. I grew up in a rural, farming, ranching area in South Central Florida. Obviously, I have, or have had, tens of thousands of friends if you include family members. Until I moved to an urban area, I did not know of one single family that did not have guns in the home. I am not aware of a single incidence of the killing of a child (deliberate or accidental).by either an adult or another child. I know, very well, several families with children who have Aspergers.

    The mother of the shooter was apparently a wonderful person who was determined to help her child. Apparently, she was not a “gun nut” but had been trained in the use of firearms and was competent in the use of them. The story I hear is that she intended to use the gun range and firearm training to “bond with her disabled Son”. I am sorry, but the Mother was responsible for this tragedy.

    How could ANYONE knowledgeable of the numerous impulsive actions of a child, or person, with this disability ….take them to a firing range or otherwise attempt to train them in the use of a weapon of this sort?? Of course this young man was absolutely thrilled with the the fact that he could make big bangs as fast as he could pull the trigger. And, he could just keep on doing it….just like beating a stick on a stone, over and over and over and over. How much more wonderful when he hit the target and was rewarded with “wows and attaboys”. How much more wonderful when he could get 30 or 50 rounds out of one magizine!!

    Undoubtedly, she loved her son very much but she was an air-head or otherwise devoid of any real life moxie what so ever. What other things will be uncovered that may indicate the extent to which she went in order to show her love and affection and to get him to respond in like fashion.??

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  20. I think something important is being overlooked here. If you take the US murder rate and remove all gun deaths you still have a murder rate of 1.46 (est) per 100,000; the rate of murder is still higher than that of the UK. This assumes that every murder by firearm would not have happened; a conclusion I would label not just unlikely but ridiculous. Even if a gun ban could cut the US gun related murder rate in half, the US would still have a murder rate of 2.94 (est) per 100,000; That would make the US number one when compared to Western Europe.

    The unfortunate truth is that America is a more violent and homicidal culture than the UK and although it may be reasonable to consider firearm ownership as a contributing factor it would in no way be a panacea. It is also quite reasonable to consider the role firearms play in preventing crimes in a more violent nation.

    By addressing only gun control we ignore the much greater questions of why a country with the largest prison population in the world and some of the toughest policing, is unable to lower homicide rates to levels comparable to Europe.

    It should also be noted that states have very differing murder rates; Hawaii is 1.2, Vermont 1.3, Rhode Island 1.3, ……. New Mexico 7.5, Mississippi 8, Louisiana 11.2, and we can’t leave out the District of Columbia (the nations capital) with a rate of 21.8. Its also worth noting that the FBI crime statistics report murder and non negligent manslaughter together. I do not know if the rates quoted for other countries include the same.

    It is interesting to note that America had an assault weapons ban from 1994 to 2004. After the ban was lifted the murder rate continued to fall from 5.5 in 2004 to 4.8 in 2011.

    It is also interesting to note that the national murder rate was 4.7 in 2011 and was lower than at any time in the last 41 years (I did not look any further) when the rate was 7.9 and climbed as high as 10.2 in 1980 and 9.8 an 1991.

    My numbers were pulled initially from this sight and then amended with numbers from the FBI crime statistics; http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr

  21. Actually, the original comment was correct, the Wikipedia article was poorly titled. There are more guns in America per person, but some people have more than one gun or even many guns. Only around 45% of Americans owns a gun. The percentage of Swiss who have a gun in their home is higher than this

  22. Ranvir, my math comes out different: 39 fire-arm related homicides out of 550 total is 7% (which is not less than 1%).

    US number at 67% is correct. Still a huge anomaly, but given the different access/ownership rates its not unexpected.

  23. It’s race. Over half the homicides are committed by blacks. This means that in certain areas like Chicago you get South African levels of murder. One more reason to stop migration from Africa to the UK at some point as the African population increases it will replicate African conditions like South Chicago or Newark or Johannesburg. We are getting a taste of this in Brixton and Tottenham.

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  25. Check the number of people killed each year by drunk/impaired drivers. Illegal as DUI is, it happens and it claims innocent lives. Our cars go 120, 140, 160 MPH but, do we drive that fast? Most law abiding citizens don’t. Our national speed limit rarely exceeds 75 MPH so we depend on common sense to prevent people from driving at the speeds attainable by their vehicles. How many speeding tickets are issued annually in the USA?

    Drugs are illegal but, we have a “war on drugs”, why, because criminals sell them and criminals buy them so, another failed policy. Check the number of people dying annually due to drug overdoses and those incarcerated for drug offenses and realize, criminalizing doesn’t stop criminals.

    If people intend to harm others in violent ways do you think they won’t because they don’t have access to firearms? It doesn’t seem to work where people don’t have firearms does it? Most Americans would love a society that is peaceful but………..as in all countries and nations, there will always be those with a blatant disregard for life. There will always be people breaking laws and there will always be new laws written that too, shall be broken.

    We take God out of our schools, we allow our children to play violent video games, we promote violence through Hollywood and most of all, we sensationalize crime and criminals through our mainstream media outlets. I mean, after all, who would tune in to a station called “The Good News Channel”? Nearly nobody because we tune in to see the murder, the mayhem, the corruption and the violence.

    We have a tremendous social issue here, this I certainly agree. We do not care for the mentally disabled, we do not rehabilitate when we incarcerate so yes, we have problems. No ONE law or set of laws will stop those that intend harm to others, not here and not anywhere. We definitely have problems but above all, we have the Constitution of the United States with its amendments and like it or not, this great country was founded on this very document. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness and IN GOD WE TRUST!

  26. DR, to echo your main point about criminalisation not preventing criminals, the idea of God is highly interpretive and varied – for example the amount of killing in the name of God is legendary, utter carnage. So I don’t acknowledge that there is a place for God in the gun debate. To argue that the rule of law is pointless because it is broken by criminals is a bit like saying that we shouldn’t have schools because some kids never achieve basic literacy. I think the point is that some things are worth criminalising whether or not there is a high prevalence of breaking that particular law.

  27. If it is true that black people kill more than white people (and Joseph John you simply assert that they do without bothering to refer us to any evidence) then the next question is obviously “Why?”. And that leads to a discovery that the correlations with poverty, poor education, social exclusion and family history of these things are the true correlation with violent crime. Skin tone only comes into it because black people in the societies you mention have historically endured great injustices and are consequently at a deficit.

    Relatedly, I live in a country in which property remains consolidated among the descendants of conquering Normans a thousand years ago.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/17/high-house-prices-inequality-normans?CMP=twt_gu

    This is how it works.

    So when you absurdly put this down to skin tone, it’s clear to me that far from being race, it’s racists.

  28. I was visiting our Denver office from the UK when news of the school shooting at Newtown reached us. I was shocked by the reaction of my American co-workers. “That’s terrible, but it happens…” seemed to be the overall opinion. I explained that hand guns were banned in the UK after the Dunblane massacre and asked if they thought this terrible inciddent would change anything. “It’s a shame, but no it won’t change anything”.

    There seemed to be a general feeling that shootings likes this, while terrible, are an unfortunate consequence of an essential element of their society.

    I have many American friends and we see eye to eye on so many issues but I simply cannot understand this mentality towards their fundamental want/need for firearms.

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  30. The best figures to use for the USA are the FBI UCR (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011)

    2011 figures are much lower (murder rates) and show the continual decline in murder/violent crime in the USA.

    One point, comparing the rate of non-firearm murder versus UK non-firearm murder is instructive. Non-firearm murder in the USA during 2011 occured at about 1.5 per 100,000, but the question is whether those firearm murders would not be “converted” to non firearm murders.

    Given that as many as 1/3rd of all murder in the US occurs in a “preexisting criminal relationship” (i.e. drug transaction, gang hit, etc) it is very likely the conversion rate to non-firearm murder would be significant. For instance, the rate of all murder in UK is 1.4 per 100,000 people, but in the USA the rate of murder-by-knife and murder-by-bare-hands and murder-by-blunt-object (2918 total) is 1.16 per 100,000 people. It is very reasonable to assume that the nearly 4100 murders where a criminal relationship exists would not convert to non-firearm murders given the frequency that Americans like to kill each other.

    The incidence of murder-by-knife (1694 total in 2011) is nearly triple the number of murders by rifle or shotgun (the weapon categories to which “assault weapons” are assigned — i.e. AK47s and AR15 rifles — 679 total murders for both categories combined).

  31. (and Joseph John you simply assert that they do without bothering to refer us to any evidence)

    For USA data, always consult the FBI UCR. The relevant table is #43

    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-22

    Murder and non-negligent manslaughter by offender race:
    White – 48% (whites are 69% of the US population)
    Black – 49.7% (blacks are 12.8% of the US population)
    Asian – 1% (asian,pacific islander are ~5% of US pop)
    American Indian 1.3% (around 2% of the US population).

    Likewise figures for other violent crime.

  32. Why does this article compare 2009 in the US to 2011-12 in the UK. Can’t you even make the years match? It looks like you’re cherry picking the statistics to make your point.

  33. It’s the difference in being a citizen versus a subject to a monarch.

    Our history is bloody. Our founding was bloody. It’s the downside of absolute liberty.

    That being said, the issue is keeping the guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. In the case of Newtown, had the mother had her firearms secured in a safe, the mentally ill son couldn’t have gotten them. Period.

    As I’ve posted above, a very large percentage of gun murders are criminal relationships. You’ll never get rid of those.

  34. Correction:

    “It is very reasonable to assume that the nearly 4100 murders where a criminal relationship exists would convert to non-firearm murders given the frequency that Americans like to kill each other.” (deleting the “not”)

  35. I would never suggest the absence of rule of law. That was never my point. My main point was, criminals are criminals and don’t, by nature, obey or consider law or the consequences of breaking it. As far as God being the basis for utter carnage, yes, I do agree. However, in the USA, though we have varying religions, I know of very few murders (especially “utter carnage”) committed in the name of God. The same cannot be said for many, many other countries.

  36. The problem with your logic is that you think that this intelligent killer with a well laid out plan would have just chosen to leave the kids alone if he didn’t have access to a gun. This is just a stupid argument. Would it have made you feel better if he would have use poison, a bomb or driven a truck at high speed across the playground during recess rather than using a gun? We need to focus on the criminal not the tool that he used to commit the crime.

  37. There are a few holes in your argument. Murder isn’t something that happens because you have a firearm it’s something that people do. There are 300 million firearms in the US in civilian hands and less than 10k of those have ever killed anyone. As for comparing the US to the UK .. even leaving firearms ownership out of it it isn’t a valid comparison. The entire country has barely the population of a few US cities and their population isn’t nearly as diverse from a socio-economic scale and they don’t have the gang/drug related crime problems that are pervasive in the US. 50% of ALL gun related homicides in the US are committed by urban black males between the ages of 16-35 AND 50% of the gun homicide victims are also urban black males between the ages of 16-35. This means that 50% of all gun related murders are committed both by and against a segment of the population that only accounts for roughly 2.5% and of your 10k number 5k of them could be fixed simply by putting programs in place to get a better understanding of the socio-economic and peer influenced gang/drug culture facing young african american males in the inner cities of this country.

    It’s also worth mentioning that murder isn’t the only kind of violent crime and violent crime in general is much worse in the UK than the US … by a factor of three ….

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-25671/Violent-crime-worse-Britain-US.html

  38. Have heard a author on a talk show years ago who discuses in his book about crime and murder rates in the US and elsewhere. He was a social anthropologist and basically found that social (ethnic) groups have a statistical average of crime/murder. Comparing two counties in crime rate may not be the best tool. How many groups from said ethnic groups are in each county? How many African decent groups are in japan? How many eastern Europeans? Western? How many are from Middle east country? Immigration has its effects…

  39. The right to bear arms was added to the US Constitution after America fought for their freedom from the tyrantical British. Pretty much like every other former subject state of the UK. How else is the citizenary to defend themselves from a government when it becomes too overbearing?
    What is it in us which makes us think that depriving millions of something will save lives? If you believe so much in statistics, should there not be many more deaths in America due to the discharging of a firearm since there are millions of them and millions more than in a country like the UK?
    And is it the number of people who are killed by a gun or just the number of deaths themselves which seems to get the attention of people? If every life is prescious it should not matter how the death was caused. But if the death only becomes important because it was due to a gun, then the person making the argument is being disengenuous. For if they were really concerned about the number of lives lost where is the outrage over the number of fatalities due to automiles (31,000+ in 2011) or better yet, abortions (1.2 million) Those numbers are tantamount to genocide.

  40. Actually I never made a reference to race, that was John. And even if the murder rate is much higher in the African American community, that is still an American culture issue. The murder problem in (my opinion) America is not a gun problem it is a problem with the American culture and was largely driven by the war on drugs.

    Just a few months ago a neighbor of mine was raided by a swat team from a city approx 40 miles away. They rammed the front door, threw in flash grenades and entered the house with full body armor and M-16s drawn. My neighbors dog retreated into the garage and hid so the swat team sent in a bomb robot to extract it. Luckily no one was home at the time, but they were called and they showed up to see what was happening. No arrests were made.

    These kinds of raids occur because we have militarized police departments for the war on drugs. The police use high risk, high violence entries because we have incentivized them with seizure laws and federal grants. Police do not serve normal knock warrants anymore because the people inside may dispose of the drugs. A knock warrant would be far safer and still curb crime. What it wont do is allow the police to seize the house and property, and get federal dollars for large drug seizures.

    I am amazed that people are shocked by American violence! We have fully militarized police everywhere. (A motorcycle cop who was handing out tickets by the freeway on-ramp also had an AR-15/M-16 folding stock weapon mounted on his motorcycle; American police carry sidearms and have assault weapons or shotguns mounted in their cars or motorcycles.) We are engaged in unilateral war all over the planet. We have the largest actively deployed military in the world. People are constantly bombarded with propaganda proclaiming how dangerous their lives are. Violent movies, violent video games… Violence is an American staple. The news always highlights violence and horrible incidents like the recent shootings only stress that the government can’t protect you.

    All of this in the face of the lowest murder rates in 40 years.

    Yet when the murder rate in America is 4.8 per 100,000 compared to England’s 1.4 per 100,000 people are flummoxed.

  41. Much violence is cultural. The US is highest in the world for “suicide-by-firearm” which would lead many to think we are one of the highest for suicide — however, the US is only 38th for rate of suicide, following 37 countries most of which have no private gun ownership whatsoever.

    Overall violent crime in the USA is not particularly high compared with many other countries, it is culture that we like to kill. As Michael Moore pointed out, Canadians own guns at almost the same rate that Americans do, but do not kill each other with them.

  42. “Regardless”? Tthe idea that Chinese children lost their “innocence,” whatever that’s supposed to mean, shares some rough equivalence to 20 forever dead children in Newtown strikes me as utterly absurd. Whether we have a mental health problem exacerbated by guns or the other way around matters little. The point is that in China, 20 out of 20 survived their mad-man attacker and in Newtown not one did. The lethality the gun is the only significant difference.

  43. I have read through all the comments and I now understand what those gun owners mean. The problem isn’t the guns, its the person who criminally uses it. I guess we should start concentrating on taking care of our people (i.e. mental health services, better parenting) and most of the issues will be solved. For the rest, maybe we should legalize drugs, it sounds as though drugs being legal would cause far less issues than they are now. Remember prohibition on alcohol, many murders because it was an underground, illegal business; not so much now that you can walk in most any store and purchase it legally. Thanks for all the comments that helped me to understand this.

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  45. Joseph,
    Nicely done. Of all the posts on the subject of violence and root causes in this country, you nailed it. Quite eloquently I might add!

  46. The chinese are communist , they run state run media and block internet and free speech

  47. Another curious fact: Britain has a population of about 53 million, and its 2011 number of violent crimes (muder, rape, assault, etc. combined) was 624,000. America has a population of about 311 million, and its 2011 number of violent crimes was 1,204,000. That gives Britain roughly half as many violent crimes as the US, with only one-fifth the population.

    –Leslie < Fish

  48. It has been well reported that the >rate< of violent crime in UK is around 2000 per 100,000 people whereas the rate of the same crime in the US is under 400 per 100,000 people (2011 figures)

  49. After reading all of the above comments I just wanted to share how wonderful it is to see thoughtful discussions with many supported facts looking at all of complex issues involved in America’s gun control debates (race, community, poverty, mental health, parenting, video games, media in general, Second Amendment, historical events, personal rights). Thank you to Flesh is Grass for hosting such an open-minded discussion, without the typical trolls pandering to their typical party platform. It is through this type of open discussion that real solutions will come to light and can be shared with those in power.

  50. Flesh: The FBI statistics and other government data show that African Americans commit violent crimes way out of proportion in relation to their percentage of the total population. I don’t doubt that poverty plays a role. But places where it easier to possess a gun in the US w/ low black and Latino populations, and quite a bit of poverty, have lower murder rates than places with high percentages of black and Latinos that restrict guns:

    http://pjmedia.com/blog/public-highlights-mass-murders-ignores-most-murders-racism/?singlepage=true

    “If you live in a part of America that is predominantly white, your risk of being murdered is greatly reduced. If you live in one of these areas and you do not have family or friends who are mentally ill or substance abusers, your risk of being murdered is very low. This is why low gun control states like Idaho, Montana, Minnesota, and North Dakota have murder rates lower (often much lower) than their restrictive gun control Canadian prairie province neighbors. These white non-Hispanic states have murder rates that compare favorably to overall European murder rates.”

    Anon, Hispanics/Latinos are more difficult to count/measure as they are sometimes included as white or black. For example, a Cuban of European ancestry would be identified as white and an Afro-Cuban would be considered black.

  51. That’s very interesting about the white / black / Hispanic differences, New Centrist and Joseph. In that case (given we agree that race may be correlated with higher murder rates but doesn’t ever cause murder) I’d be inclined to ask questions about murder rates in rural / urban settings within those states. Urban life brings friction as well as the affront of inequality. I can’t go looking myself at the moment (nor give this interesting thread nearly the attention it deserves). Thank you all for your comments – please carry on.

    (Hope you’re well, N.C.)

  52. A few comments:
    1) Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I am definitely not someone who thinks race is the causal factor, but there is a correlation. And there is a correlation between being black and having lower income, lower levels of education, growing up in a fatherless household, etc.
    2) The rural vs. urban factor is important to consider. The rates should be available in those FBI or DOJ statistics posted somewhere on this thread.
    3) Doing well. I’ll be out there again in a few months. Bob will be in touch. All the best to you and yours.

  53. If the population and statistics provided for uk are only for England and Wales there were 56.1m people and 550 murders that would work out at 0.98 per 100,000 not 1.4 there would have had to be 785 murders to reach that rate. No us state had a lower murder rate than this in 2011-12.

  54. So do knives, baseball bats, fireplace pokers,cars and thousands of other items that have been used to kill, maim and destroy peoples lives. What is the point that a weapons origin was once legal? Once used for the purpose of a crime it origin is meaningless.

  55. Just saying that the only way criminals get guns is by stealing or buying them from someone who acquired them legally. So less legal guns equals less illegal guns.

  56. so less cars will mean less car assaults, less baseball bats will equate to less bludgeoning deaths, less knives ect All that happens is the means change But the crime or intent stays. Also history is not kind to people who allow their government to disarm them.I see no reason to believe the politicians in washington or Many other states really have the peoples interest at heart. But power and control…..That is another story

  57. there is a utube video that has the stats (from the US government) It seems like most crimes occur in large metro areas. The US has a lot more areas with population greater than 250K than the UK and when you compare US to UK our crime rate is lower than theirs. By a factor of 3-4. would list the sight but didn’t book mark it at the time.

  58. Yes, exactly. Keep in mind that the Oklahoma City Bombing was committed with fertilizer and diesel fuel. And killed more people than all the mass shootings in the last 10 years combined.

  59. never been satisfied with the explanation of the ok. bombing. To many unanswered questions to many conflicting information as to what happened. And who was involved. Also they were quick to “clean up” before anyone else could look

  60. I’m not satisfied with your dissatisfaction with the explanation. I find it deeply wrong to casually dismiss evidence-based accounts – the consensus of people qualified to make them, not embittered pundits who hate authority and expertise – without providing evidence yourself. I suppose you habitually entertain conspiracy beliefs and feel no responsibility to justify yourself. Well, here’s the thing. The onus is on YOU. And not on my blog, thanks.

  61. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

    The US has about twice the violent crime as the UK…and more than 5x the population. Therefore you are more than twice as likely to be a victim of a violent crime in the UK. Do the math – personally I would rather take the approx 19 million fewer violent crimes in exchange for the 5000 additional gun murders (both numbers adjusted for population.)

  62. ETHNIC GROUPS does not mean IMMIGRATION. some ethnic groups have IMMIGRATED GENERATIONS AGO. so they are no longer IMMIGRANTS. but i guess that is the kind of data that YOU would overlook. SORRY. FAIL. putting everything on a racist view of immigration DOES NOT WORK.

  63. this is a moot argument. and if you disagree, please state how many mass murders have occurred using knives, baseball bats, fireplace pokers, and cars. further more, if all you need to kill – so to defend yourself – is a knife, a baseball bat, a fireplace poker or a car – what the hell do we need guns for exactly?

  64. i cant stand hearing about this chinese madman. he DID NOT KILL these kids. one man with one weapon in the u.s. killed 20, plus 8 adults. CHECK YOUR FACTS FOR HEAVEN’S SAKE.

  65. violent video games are played the world over. dont blame video games. they only mimic what you people do, which is joyfully killing each other at an alarming (for normal people) rate, with weapons that you do not need for anything else that a hand gun or a rifle cant achieve. i dont know in which god you trust, but he is a bloodthirsty one.

  66. does not matter if uk population is smaller, the data compiled above are PERCENTAGES. read your math schoolbooks once again. and please, if you want to sound serious, do not try and reduce the importance of MURDER among violent crimes. this sounds utterly silly. and this socio economic mumbo jumbo of yours is only bigoted reasoning. LOOK AT THE NUMBERS UP THERE. THEY DO NOT LIE.

  67. all your comment is a valuation of gun over that of human life. that is ok. your prerogative.

  68. yeah. drunk drivers get their cars taken away. and their licences. because you have more declaring and licensing to do with a car than with a gun. and video games are played the world over, yet only in the states do you kill your kids with so much gusto – and dont you bring the mad man in china, he attacked, but did not kill. because you cannot perform a mass killing with a knife, darling, whatever your stupid leaders may tell you.

  69. does not matter if killed people are urban or country, darling, they are dead folks all the like. stop finding reasons to justify the gusto with which americans shoot each other. it is nothing but sick – in the eye of normal people, of course.

  70. Agreed there is a socio-ethnic demarcation in relation to murder rates. The continental murder rate in Africa is 450 -500% greater than the United States. There is a direct correlation represented in by these FBI statistics:
    Prevalence of homicide and violent crime is greatest in low income urban areas of the United States. In metropolitan areas, the homicide rate in 2005 was 6.1 per 100,000 compared with 3.5 in non-metropolitan counties.[32] In U.S. cities with populations greater than 250,000, the mean homicide rate was 12.1 per 100,000.[33] According to FBI statistics, the highest per capita rates of gun-related homicides in 2005 were in D.C. (35.4/100,000), Puerto Rico (19.6/100,000), Louisiana (9.9/100,000), and Maryland (9.9/100,000).[34

  71. Tried prohibition early in 20th Century, that didn’t work. Alcohol made legal at specified age.
    War on Drugs is not working. Should be the same as alcohol regulations to elimination the incentive to sell illegal drugs.
    War on Guns–I don’t even have a clue as how to solve gun crimes.
    Sadly, if something becomes illegal, the very people who do harm, will always get hands on what they want–booze, drugs, or guns. It’s called Crime.

  72. Michael Moore was born in Flint and raised in Davison, a suburb of Flint. “Michael Moore Hates America” is a pathetic collection of right wing lies about him, as is pretty much everything else said about him by his opponents.

  73. Minnesota has a murder rate of 1.38/100,000 in 2011, with gun ownership increasing and “shall issue” carry permits. Lots of guns, lots of hunters, not many murders, kind of shoots down the idea that guns cause violence. And we still have to listen to Piers Morgan. Of course, he said if we don’t stiffen our gun laws, he will go home. Probably sold a million more guns when he said that. Violence rates have dropped in the U.S. for the last 20 years. Populations in the cities have been increasing, which is where the most violence seems to be.

  74. Pingback: gun control - Page 20 - Defending The Truth Political Forum

  75. Lise Tessier, Here’s just a few mass murders without the use of firearms. Fireplace pokers not needed. In 2001 Jim Jones killed 909 people with Kool-Aid. 1995 the bombing of a federal building in Oklahoma killed 168 people. In 1990 and arson fire at a social club in Bronx, NY killed 87 people. Shall I continue to list more mass murders without the use of a firearm?

  76. The UK has a large non white immigrant population, especially in London. They have a murder rate of 1.1 per hundred thousand of population. The only city in the USA that even comes close to the size of London is NYC. As for violent crime rates in the U.K., they measure simple pushing and shoving without injury as violent crime, we do not. More than 50% of reported violent crime falls under that category.

  77. Not quite accurate: Switzerland issues a gun to every able-bodied male, who must serve in their military reserves (sometimes till aged 50) or be taxed 3% of gross income if unfit for service. Females may volunteer to serve. Distribution of ammunition for said weapons is tightly regulated and may only be used in cases of war/civil defense (being a neutral country, there is no war). These conscripts are trained and required to keep their personal weapon well-maintained and secure. Gun ownership for private citizens not serving in the militia is regulated with common-sense laws that would make the gun lobby of the US shudder with revulsion.

    Comparing gun ownership and crime statistics is pointless if one does not also assess the differences between the two countries. Here in the United States, we are not required to serve in the military or do any type of civil service. Nearly everyone can own a weapon and carry it around. Most states have no requirement that a gun owner even know how to operate their weapon or be educated in gun safety. A quick Google search offers a generous sample of people who injure themselves or others accidentally with their own weapon.

    Although Switzerland does have a lower gun-related crime rate compared to the US, it is not the lowest in the world, even among nations where gun ownership is legal. The reason that gun advocates cite this statistic is to imply that since everyone owns a gun, criminals are afraid to use them. This is patently ridiculous, especially given the knowledge that concealed carry permits are highly regulated in Switzerland, usually given only to military and security officers. Permit applicants must state a reason for the need of the weapon and are required to pass an exam demonstrating fitness to own and carry the weapon. The permit expires after five years and applies only to the type of firearm specified in the permit. All gun owners must pass a criminal background check and have no known mental health issues or security concerns. Purchases of ammunition are recorded by name at point of sale in a bound book. Ammo for long rifles used for hunting are not regulated or recorded. Semi-automatic weapons are very tightly regulated.

    The gun-related death rate is eight times higher in the United states than that of our economic counterparts in the world, with the highest youth death rate and the highest gun-suicide rate of all industrialized nations. We are also tops for gun ownership in the entire world, of course, without peer. The only nations that outpace our gun violence rates are war-torn or severely economically depressed nations with horrifying statistics on civil rights and poverty.

    Some additional comparisons that you may find interesting: Switzerland has universal (and mandatory) healthcare coverage, a very low poverty rate, 3% unemployment rate, and virtually no homelessness-all factors that contribute to the crime rate in the USA. Switzerland also has one of the lowest marginal tax rates in the world, with a stable economy and one of highest per capita income rates in the world. The banking sector thrives because of the nation’s neutrality and sovereignty, as Mitt Romney knows well. They are also skinnier than we are, damn it! “What America can learn from Switzerland” is a LOT!

  78. Not quite accurate: Switzerland issues a gun to every able-bodied male, who must serve in their military reserves (sometimes till aged 50) or be taxed 3% of gross income if unfit for service. Females may volunteer to serve. Distribution of ammunition for said weapons is tightly regulated and may only be used in cases of war/civil defense (being a neutral country, there is no war). These conscripts are trained and required to keep their personal weapon well-maintained and secure. Gun ownership for private citizens not serving in the militia is regulated with common-sense laws that would make the gun lobby of the US shudder with revulsion.

    Comparing gun ownership and crime statistics is pointless if one does not also assess the differences between the two countries. Here in the United States, we are not required to serve in the military or do any type of civil service. Nearly everyone can own a weapon and carry it around. Most states have no requirement that a gun owner even know how to operate their weapon or be educated in gun safety. A quick Google search offers a generous sample of people who injure themselves or others accidentally with their own weapon.

    Although Switzerland does have a lower gun-related crime rate compared to the US, it is not the lowest in the world, even among nations where gun ownership is legal. The reason that gun advocates cite this statistic is to imply that since everyone owns a gun, criminals are afraid to use them. This is patently ridiculous, especially given the knowledge that concealed carry permits are highly regulated in Switzerland, usually given only to military and security officers. Permit applicants must state a reason for the need of the weapon and are required to pass an exam demonstrating fitness to own and carry the weapon. The permit expires after five years and applies only to the type of firearm specified in the permit. All gun owners must pass a criminal background check and have no known mental health issues or security concerns. Purchases of ammunition are recorded by name at point of sale in a bound book. Ammo for long rifles used for hunting are not regulated or recorded. Semi-automatic weapons are very tightly regulated.

    The gun-related death rate is eight times higher in the United states than that of our economic counterparts in the world, with the highest youth death rate and the highest gun-suicide rate of all industrialized nations. We are also tops for gun ownership in the entire world, of course, without peer. The only nations that outpace our gun violence rates are war-torn or severely economically depressed nations with horrifying statistics on civil rights and poverty.

    Some additional comparisons that you may find interesting: Switzerland has universal (and mandatory) healthcare coverage, a very low poverty rate, 3% unemployment rate, and virtually no homelessness-all factors that contribute to the crime rate in the USA. Switzerland also has one of the lowest marginal tax rates in the world, with a stable economy and one of highest per capita income rates in the world. The banking sector thrives because of the nation’s neutrality and sovereignty, as Mitt Romney knows well. They are also skinnier than we are, damn it! “What America can learn from Switzerland” is a LOT!

  79. On the same day as the Newtown massacre of 20 5 and 6 year olds with a Bushmaster rifle, there was an attack in China on 22 schoolchildren by a man with a knife. The difference between the two attacks is that none of the children in China died. Firearms are much better at killing than knives. The recorded violent crime rate in the UK is higher than in the USA, but the British count simple pushing and shoving without any injuries as violent crime, we do not. More than 50% of British “violent crime” falls under this category. Comparison of murder rates is easy, but what is considered violent crime and trying to compare them, not so much.

  80. True and the UK had just over 600 murder last year with a population of 62 million. We had 11,000 (9000 of which were with guns). We have only 5 times their population but 27 times as many murders.

  81. It’s not just parenting, although that is a large part of it. If people didn’t have such easy access to firearms, a lot of this stuff would never happen. Look at Adam Lanza, skinny little runt. What would he have been able to do without firearms? Short of a bomb, not much.

  82. יצחק בּוזוף The people of the UK are citizens too. The monarchy in the UK is purely ceremonial, they wield NO power. People are voted into the house of commons in just as they are voted into congress here. The UK is not less democratic than the USA, in fact in some ways it is more democratic.

  83. Most murders in the USA are committed with handguns. All you are doing with this post is showing that more guns = more murders, by taking the gun murders out of the equation.

  84. London is far bigger than the USA’s largest city, yet it has a much much lower total murder rate and less gun murders than, for example, Durham North Carolina which has a population of just over 100K. London proper is a little larger in population than NYC and the metro area of London (The Thames Valley) is roughly 25 million, also more than the metro area of NYC.

  85. Actually it’s 62,641,000. The British count simple pushing and shoving without injury as violent crime. We don’t. Of course then their violent crime rate is higher, they count things as violent crime that we don’t.

  86. Hawaii has the lowest murder rate in the USA at 1.5 per hundred K of population. They also have the lowest gun ownership rate at 6%.

  87. That’s exactly what Klebold and Harris were going to do. If they hadn’t gotten guns, they were going to bomb the school. They brought half a dozen bombs with them but were killed before detonating them. The size of the explosion would have brought the building down.

    Bear in mind that Timothy McVeigh did not use a single firearm and had a higher body count than all the mass shootings in the last 10 years.

  88. I was referring obliquely to the mentality of the individuals, not to their actual legal status. Britons have been shown to be far more likely to go along with hare-brained policy measures and seem to like the notion of government taking care of them. Americans are keen to fight and many resist government getting involved in their personal lives. There is a huge divide between “urban” and “rural” Americans, though, and “urban” Americans seem to like being herded not unlike Britons and the tide does seem to be turning in that direction. It could simply be the influx of immigrants over the last 50 years or so, almost all fleeing some sort of socialist/communist “utopia” for a better life in the USA, but unwittingly bringing the desire to be coddled along with them.

  89. Actually, if you drill thru the FBI’s numbers, what you find is that more than 2/3rds of ALL murder in the USA is committed in a “criminal on criminal” relationship. Yes, handguns are the primary murder “tool” but send out a paddywagon and jail every last gang member and you’ve eliminated more than 66% of ALL murder in the USA. And then you end up with a murder rate lower than the UK.

    Scooping up all the gang members will be far easier than trying to get them to give up their guns. Ban firearms and all you do is disarm the law abiding. The gangs already break the laws on drugs, murder, rape, robbery, etc, why would they choose to obey a gun confiscation order?

  90. my son’s karate instructor was murdered in the utopia of HI. Yes by a criminal with an gun not legally in his possession.(rumor was it came from a political family of esteem) In a heavily gun restricted state, My daughters witnessed witnessed several stabbings at local bus stops while waiting to return from the malls there…..I have been multiple states with far less gun control and haven’t seen near the cesspool of crime i have seen is so called gun controlled cities..

  91. According to the FBI’s crime data for 2011, Hawaii’s murder rate is actually 1.24, and yes Hawaii has the lowest rate of gun ownership

    However, Vermont has a similar murder rate (1.27 per 100k) and 42% of residents own guns. Likewise, New Hampshire has a rate of 1.29 per 100k with 30% of residents owning guns. We can go thru the list of the 10 states with the lowest rate of murder, but your implied hypothesis (i.e. murder rate is lower with lower gun ownership) is provably false.

  92. Also, I’d like to point out that both Vermont and New Hampshire have ZERO restrictions on the carry of a firearm. Anyone legally allowed to own a gun may carry it concealed. No permit required. Vermont has historically had the LEAST restrictive gun laws in the country — even non residents may carry concealed in Vermont.

  93. However guns are designed to kill, most knives, all baseball bats, fireplace pokers, cars and thousands of other items have not. If cars, baseball bats, pokers, dinner knives, carving knives, butter knives, spoons, frying pans, shovels and thousands of other items that have been used to kill ARE used to kill they have not been used as intended by their manufacturers. If a gun is used to kill it has fulfilled it design purpose successfully. Most murders in the USA are committed with easily and legally purchased guns, not the other items. Of the 12,000ish murder a year committed in the USA each year, roughly 9000 are committed with firearms, mostly pistols.

  94. “This assumes that all 9 thousand killings would have happened if the killers did not have guns” No it doesn’t, they were taken out of the equation.

  95. His point was that the original post assumes that none of the 9,000 gun murders would have become knife/club/hand murders instead (Method Exchange). It is safe to say that the number of “Exchange(d) method” murders would be lower but how lower is anyone’s guess. It is notable that the UK numbers do in fact include their low rate of gun murders. It’s a fantasy comparison though, because the incidence of guns in the US will never be as low as the UK.

    A better comparison would be Canada. Canadians own firearms at almost the rate as Americans, but their violent crime and murder rate is far lower. Why?

    Demographers have made obvious points about the differences in the US and Canadian population, especially as it relates to urban dwellers in the US vs Canada (US urban dwellers are far more violent and crime-prone overall).

    Back to the original post, Britons simply kill each other at a much lower rate than Americans do. When guns were legal and somewhat common in UK and Americans could buy a handgun over the counter at a hardware store, murder rates in the UK still were far behind the USA’s. It is a cultural difference. Americans like to kill each other. Likewise, Brazilians like to kill each other more than Americans do and Mexicans as well.

    The best predictor of murder rate in the world is poverty. The more poverty there is, the more murder there is. This is borne out in the USA by differences in the murder rates in states and cities. Also, generally speaking, the closer to the equator a country is, the higher the crime rate (including murder) is. There are other less PC predictors, but the two biggest are poverty and equatorial nearness.

  96. The you need to make that clear, which it wasn’t. The difference between the British and Americans is that the British realize that in a democracy (which Britain is) they, the people, hold the power and the government only does their bidding. Therefore, they don’t go along with hair brained policy measures, they are the ones that are asking for them. Britons are not being herded, they speak and their government does their bidding. The government of Britain does what it’s people want. When it doesn’t (which happens now and then), they are soon forced out of power with civil unrest. It has happened repeatedly in the UK. The last time would have been the Poll Tax Riots which forced the conservative government of the day out of power.

  97. “Actually, if you drill thru the FBI’s numbers, what you find is that more than 2/3rds of ALL murder in the USA is committed in a “criminal on criminal” relationship.” I have drilled through the numbers, in fact they are very easy to find, not much drilling involved and what you are saying here is simply put, untrue. It could be a lie or it could be a mistake, but either way it is untrue.

  98. Most of the countries of the British Empire DID not fight for their freedom. The Empire just got too much to handle and with the damage WW2 did the the British economy, they were keen to lose most of their colonies, as they were too much to handle. Most former UK colonies went to self rule, without any bloodshed whatsoever. Most murders in the USA are committed with firearms. There’s a reason for that, it much much easier to kill someone with a gun than with a knive, sword, hammer, fists and feet etc. All of them require you to get in close and present risk to the attacker, a gun does not. We do try to reduce the number of automobile deaths, cars get new life saving technology on a regular basis. Most of them are required by law. Electronic Stability Control, Air Bags, Crumple Zones, Seat Belts, Driving Tests, We do everything we can to make driving safer, with laws and technology. So if you agree that this is good for a car then why not do everything we can to make gun ownership safer, which includes not letting some people have firearms at all. As far as abortion is concerned, I agree with you on that score. But if life is so precious to you then you should not only be supporting the ever increasing safety of cars and eliminating or at least reducing the number of abortions, but you should also want to reduce the number of people killed with guns. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

  99. It;s also well reported, which you choose to ignore or just don’t know in the first place, that violent crime in the UK includes pushing and shoving with no injuries to the victim. That would not be counted as a violent crime here. More than 50% of “violent crime” in the UK falls into that category.

  100. One cannot make illegal guns inaccessible, but it is possible and reasonable to require legal owners to secure their legally-owned firearms.

    I am a gun owner and any firearm I have is locked up when I am not carrying it. I have young children in my home as well, my concern is more them than someone stealing the gun.

    Good, inexpensive safes are cheap, no more than $30-40 for a one-handgun safe. Larger “locker” style safes are available for long guns, and can be found as cheaply as $100. They are not as good as reinforced, fireproof safe, but for the vast majority of thieves who are looking to “smash and grab” they will prevent access. Likewise to the Adam Lanzas of the world, a safe likely would prevent many of them from getting access as well.

  101. Of the states with the highest murder rates, the majority also have high gun ownership rates. There are some states that have lower murder rates while still having higher gun ownership rates, but they are the exception to the rule. Louisiana for example has a gun ownership rate approaching 50% (as does most of the US) and a murder rate of more than 11 per 100K of population. Most of the states that have high murder rates also have high gun ownership rates. Most of the states that have low murder rates have low gun ownership rates. There are some exceptions, Chicago springs to mind, but in general that is the case.

  102. All very good observations, however, it isn’t the “people” in the UK that are promoting cockamamie gun death figures, it is the government itself. It is political and police heads that come out in favor of stricter laws, promising greater security and safety, and it’s the people that believe such nonsense and permit themselves to be herded. Notably, UK’s own estimate of violent crime has increased significantly since the Dunblane bans were implemented. And gun crime increased as well. Where is the security and safety we were promised?

  103. It’s easy to compare which states have the most or least restrictive gun laws, the Brady Campaign does that for us: http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/

    Notably, the states with the LOWEST rate of violent crime, almost all get a “zero” rating from Brady (rate per 100k, state, brady rating)
    238 KENTUCKY 0
    237 WISCONSIN 0
    221 MINNESOTA 1
    219 WYOMING 0
    201 IDAHO 0
    197 VIRGINIA 1
    195 UTAH 0
    188 NEW HAMPSHIRE 0
    135 VERMONT 0
    123 MAINE 0

    And the states with the highest brady ratings? Almost all are at or well above the national average for violent crime:

    1202 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 4 **
    411 CALIFORNIA 4
    428 MASSACHUSETTS 3
    398 NEW YORK 3
    308 NEW JERSEY 3
    287 HAWAII 3
    273 CONNECTICUT 3
    494 MARYLAND 2
    445 MICHIGAN 2
    429 ILLINOIS 2

    **Brady does not rate DC for obvious reasons, but DC’s gun laws are stricter than California’s and CA receives a rating of 4.

    If stricter gun laws appreciably affected violent crime rates, then you’d see higher violent crime in VT or VA, not DC, CA or MA.

  104. kids are smarter than a lock far to often. My younger brother when he was four pushed a chair across a bedroom floor, got on the top shelf of a hutch that was more than twice his reach. Got the keys he wanted while my day was out back weeding a garden. When to a locked car. Unlocked ir. Unlocked a glove compartment (with another key) loaded a double barrel shotgun and managed to discharge it in the family car. (hunting season and dad when hunting day before. He was less than 4 at the time. (He was lucky he was not hurt by the way) Locking only keeps undetermined people away. Many of the mass shooters were very determined.

  105. I’ve seen both films and both make some good points and some dubious claims. But you know when someone claims that every piece of criticism of any auteur is “a pathetic collection of right wing lies” (or left wing lies for that matter) then you know that person is going on blind gut instinct, not reason. Disregard their comment immediately.

  106. This is an interesting anecdote, but facts do not bear it out. Moreover, why were the keys kept in a place the child could reach? A four year old doing all of that? Sounds very suspicious to me.

    However, if that’s your concern, then use a fingerprint safe. A single-handgun fingerprint safe can be had for around $90 now, larger ones for the same range.

    For every problem there is a solution.

  107. Violent crime and murder are not the same thing. The British measure simple pushing and shoving without any injuries as violent crime, we don’t To compare their violent crimes statistics is disingenuous, because they count things as violent crime that we do not. Howvever what they consider murder and what we consider murder are the same thing.

  108. Post them again, I didn’t see them. What I did see is the FBI Crime reports and it does not prove what you are saying, in fact just the opposite.

  109. Isn’t it great that they can make a chart? No real data behind it at all. No references. I can make a chart showing blue unicorn farts smell better than pink unicorn farts. No references of course. Who needs ‘em?

  110. IN ONE YEAR (all ages)
    Î Almost 100,000 people in America
    are shot in murders, assaults, suicides, accidents, or by police intervention.
    31,593 people died from gun violence
    12,179 people murdered.
    18,223 people killed themselves.
    592 people killed accidentally.
    326 killed by police intervention.
    273 died but intent was not known.
    66,769 people survived gun injuries
    44,466 people injured in an attack.
    3,013 people injured in a suicide attempt.
    18,610 people shot accidentally.
    679 people shot in a police intervention.
    IN ONE YEAR (ages 0-19)
    Î Almost 20,000 American children and teens
    are shot in murders, assaults, suicides, accidents, or by police intervention.
    2,966 kids died from gun violence
    2,037 children and teens murdered.
    748 kids killed themselves.
    123 children and teens killed accidentally.
    19 killed by police intervention.
    39 died but the intent was unknown.
    14,008 kids survived gun injuries
    10,038 injured in an attack.
    165 injured in a suicide attempt.
    3,588 shot accidentally.
    218 shot in a police intervention.
    EVERY DAY (on average)
    Î Every day, 270 people in America, 47 of them children and teens
    are shot in murders, assaults, suicides, accidents, and police intervention.
    Î Every day, 87 people die from gun violence, 33 of them murdered.
    Î Every day, 8 children and teens die from gun violence.
    Î Every day, 183 people are shot, but survive their gun injuries.
    Î Every day, 38 children and teens are shot, but survive their gun injuries.

  111. Americans like to murder each other. I would bet our murder rate overall, even exclusive of guns is higher than all of those countries. Moreover, this is what you call “select data.” Pick the examples that best fit your chosen outcome. Arthur Kellerman would be proud!

  112. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20571454

    J Trauma. 2011 Jan;70(1):238-43. doi: 10.1097/TA.0b013e3181dbaddf.
    Homicide, suicide, and unintentional firearm fatality: comparing the United States with other high-income countries, 2003.
    Richardson EG, Hemenway D.
    Source
    Department of Health Services, UCLA School of Public Health, Los Angeles, California 90095-1772, USA. erin.richardson@gmail.com
    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:
    Violent death is a major public health problem in the United States and throughout the world.
    METHODS:
    A cross-sectional analysis of the World Health Organization Mortality Database analyzes homicides and suicides (both disaggregated as firearm related and non-firearm related) and unintentional and undetermined firearm deaths from 23 populous high-income Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development countries that provided data to the World Health Organization for 2003.
    RESULTS:
    The US homicide rates were 6.9 times higher than rates in the other high-income countries, driven by firearm homicide rates that were 19.5 times higher. For 15-year olds to 24-year olds, firearm homicide rates in the United States were 42.7 times higher than in the other countries. For US males, firearm homicide rates were 22.0 times higher, and for US females, firearm homicide rates were 11.4 times higher. The US firearm suicide rates were 5.8 times higher than in the other countries, though overall suicide rates were 30% lower. The US unintentional firearm deaths were 5.2 times higher than in the other countries. Among these 23 countries, 80% of all firearm deaths occurred in the United States, 86% of women killed by firearms were US women, and 87% of all children aged 0 to 14 killed by firearms were US children.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    The United States has far higher rates of firearm deaths-firearm homicides, firearm suicides, and unintentional firearm deaths compared with other high-income countries. The US overall suicide rate is not out of line with these countries, but the United States is an outlier in terms of our overall homicide rate.

  113. Mass Shootings in the United States Since 2005
    The Brady Campaign compiles this list of mass shootings based on online reports of shootings
    across the U.S where 3 people or more were injured or killed. Each entry lists the city, state
    and date of the incident, brief details on the shooting, and the source of the information.
    Newtown, CT
    December 14, 2012
    26 people were shot and killed at Sandy Hook Elementary School, a K-4
    th
    grade school. 24-
    year-old Ryan Lanza, whose mother was one of the victims and employed by the school, was
    the lone gunman. Twenty young students and six adults at the school died. (26 Dead at
    Newtown School, NBC, December 14, 2012).
    Portland, OR
    December 11, 2012
    22-year-old Jacob Roberts killed two and injured one before killing himself at a Portland-area
    shopping mall, which was crowded with thousands of holiday shoppers. The injured victim was
    a 15-year-old girl, to whom Roberts had no relation. (Details, but no answers, in Oregon mall
    shooting, CNN, December 13, 2012)
    Fresno, CA
    November 6, 2012
    Lawrence Jones, a 42-year-old employee of a Fresno, CA – area chicken processing plant
    opened fire at his workplace, killing two and injuring two others before killing himself. Jones had
    a long criminal history and was on parole at the time of his death. Later reports indicated that he
    had been diagnosed with ‘explosive disorder.’
    (3 dead, 2 wounded after shooting rampage at California chicken plant, Fox News, Nov. 6,
    2012)
    Chicago, IL
    October 21, 2012
    Two men, ages 28 and 30, were killed in a shooting that also wounded a 25-year-old pregnant
    woman in the city’s South Chicago neighborhood. This incident was one of many unrelated
    shootings that together resulted in 24 wounded in one weekend. (At least 5 dead, 24 wounded
    in gun violence over weekend, Huffington Post, Oct. 22, 2012)
    Brookfield, WI
    October 21, 20121225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    2 Updated 12/14/2012
    Radcliffe Haughton shot and killed his estranged wife Zina Haughton and two other women,
    wounding four others before killing himself, at the salon where she worked. Haughton had a
    history of harassing Zina, who had filed a restraining order against him on October 8, 2012. This
    order prohibited Haughton from owning any firearms, yet two days after it was approved,
    Haughton illegally purchased a .40-caliber semiautomatic weapon, which he used to kill three
    people and himself.
    (Wisconsin salon shooter’s wife told court he terrorized her for years, NBC, Oct. 22, 2012)
    Casselberry, FL
    October 18, 2012
    Three women were killed and one was wounded at a beauty salon by gunman Bradford
    Baumet, who later killed himself at another location. Police say he was served with a domestic
    violence injunction October 9, 2012, and had been scheduled to appear in court the day of the
    shooting.
    (Salon shooting: police ID accused gunman in Fla. salon shooting, AP, Oct. 18, 2012)
    Winter Springs, FL
    September 30, 2012
    Several people exchanged gunfire before a charity motorcycle ride began at a Veterans of
    Foreign Wars post. Shooters killed two and wounded one, and police confiscated numerous
    weapons.
    (Shooting at veterans club in Florida leaves 2 dead, 1 injured, AP, Sept. 30, 2012)
    Minneapolis, MN
    September 27, 2012
    Disgruntled former employee Andrew Engeldinger entered Accent Signage Systems, Inc., and
    opened fire, killing five and wounding four before killing himself. Among those killed were
    Reuven Rahamim, the business owner, and a UPS driver.
    (Five dead in Minneapolis shooting rampage, Minneapolis Public Radio, Sept. 28, 2012)
    Compton, CA
    September 10, 2012
    A still-unidentified shooter opened fire on a group of young men gathered behind a Compton
    apartment building, killing one and injuring two others. The gunman fled on foot, and police say
    the shooting appeared to be gang-related.
    (Gang-related shooting in Compton kills 1, injures 2, ABC, Sept. 10, 2012)
    Old Bridge, NJ
    August 31, 2012
    23-year-old Terence Tyler shot and killed two coworkers at a Pathmark grocery store, early in
    the morning before the store opened. The victims were 18 and 24 years old. Tyler used an
    assault rifle similar to an AK-47 and killed himself with a handgun. He was a former Marine, and
    police say he might have had a history of depression and mental illness.
    (Employee shoots 2 dead at NJ supermarket before killing himself, police say, NBC, Aug. 31,
    2012)
    Chicago, IL
    August 24, 20121225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    3 Updated 12/14/2012
    Eight people were wounded on a single street on the South Side of Chicago in a drive-by
    shooting. The victims ranged in age from 14 to 20 years. This incident was among several
    unrelated shootings the weekend of August 24 that wounded a total of 19 people.
    (At least 19 wounded by gun violence Thursday, 13 over 30 minutes, AP, Aug. 24, 2012)
    Laplace, LA
    August 16, 2012
    Two police deputies were killed and two were wounded in a shootout in a suburb of New
    Orleans between police and suspects with ties to violent anarchists. The shooters were among
    seven “sovereign citizens” arrested, known to the FBI for their suspicious activity and radical
    ideologies. The group of suspects had been previously monitored, and a stockpile of weapons
    was found in their residences.
    (Suspects in deputy killings linked to extremists, CBS, Aug. 18, 2012)
    College Station, TX
    August 13, 2012
    A 30-minute shootout near the Texas A&M University campus resulted in the deaths of a police
    constable, a bystander, the shooter, and the injury of four others. It was said by his family that
    35-year-old gunman Thomas Caffall was “ill.” The University activated its emergency “Code
    Maroon” to warn students to avoid the area.
    (3 killed in shootings near Texas A&M University, CNN, Aug. 14, 2012)
    Oak Creek, WI
    August 5, 2012
    Seven people were killed, including the gunman and three injured at a Sikh temple in a
    Milwaukee suburb. The FBI is investigating the incident as a “domestic terrorist-type incident.”
    (Gunman, six others dead at Wisconsin Sikh temple, CNN, August 5, 2012)
    Aurora, CO
    July 20, 2012
    Twelve people were killed and 58 were injured in Aurora, Colorado during a sold-out midnight
    premier of the new Batman movie “The Dark Knight Rises” when 24-year-old James Holmes
    unloaded four weapons’ full of ammunition into the unsuspecting crowd. He detonated multiple
    smoke bombs, and then began firing at viewers in the sold-out auditorium, Ten members of
    “The Dark Knight Rises” audience were killed in theater, while two others died later at area
    hospitals. Numerous patrons were in critical condition at six local hospitals, the Aurora police
    said. (Colorado Movie Theater Shooting: 70 Victims The Largest Mass Shooting, ABC, July 20,
    2012)
    Tuscaloosa, AL
    July 17, 2012
    A gunman stood outside of a crowded downtown bar and opened fire from two different
    positions early Tuesday, sending patrons running or crawling for cover. At least 17 people
    were hurt. Nathan Van Wilkins, 44, surrendered about 10 hours after the shooting near the
    University of Alabama campus, police said. Authorities believe one of the bar patrons was a
    target of the rampage and that it was connected to an earlier shooting at a home. (Alabama
    shooting suspect surrenders, SFGate, July 17 2012)1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
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    4 Updated 12/14/2012
    Chicago, IL
    July 11, 2012
    Four youngsters are among the latest victims caught in Chicago’s gun violence epidemic,
    including two middle school-aged girls who were wounded in a neighborhood park on the Far
    South Side. (Gun Violence Leaves 4 More Chicago Youth Wounded, CBS Chicago, July 11
    2012)
    Dover, DE
    July 9, 2012
    At a weekend soccer tournament in Delaware three people died and two were wounded. The
    dead included the tournament organizer, a 16-year-old boy participating in the tournament and
    one of three suspects alleged to have initiated the deadly violence Sunday afternoon at a park
    near downtown Wilmington. (3 dead after gunfire at Del. soccer tournament, AP, July 9 2012)
    Chicago, IL
    July 6, 2012
    Three people were shot, a 19-year-old man was shot in the calf, a 34-year-old man was shot in
    the back and a 24-year-old man was shot in the thigh. The oldest was taken to Advocate Christ
    Medical Center in critical condition and the other two were taken to Roseland Hospital, Alfaro
    said. Someone approached the three on a bicycle and opened fire. (3 dead, 7 wounded in
    shootings across city, Chicago Tribune, July 9 2012)
    Seattle, WA
    July 02, 2012
    One killed, five injured at party.
    Gunfire erupted at a South Seattle home where a party was underway. Six people were hit with
    flying bullets as multiple shots were fired. One of the wounded, a 21-year old woman, later died.
    (MORE GUN VIOLENCE IN SEATTLE, Sky Valley Chronicle, July 2 2012)
    Chicago, IL
    July 1, 2012
    One man was killed and a man and woman were injured in a shooting that occurred early
    Sunday in the East Garfield Park neighborhood, police said. A 22-year-old man was shot in the
    head and pronounced dead on the scene. (Cops: 1 dead, 2 injured in West Side shooting,
    Chicago Tribune, July 1, 2012)
    Omaha, NE
    06/26/2012
    Gun violence put three men in the hospital, one of whom has serious injuries. One neighbor
    said she heard several shots, then went outside to find the victims hit in the hand, arm and leg.
    (3 injured in 61st Street shooting, MSNBC, June 26, 2012)
    Houston, TX
    06/20/2012
    Gunfire erupted outside a Houston night club, killing three people and wounding two others as
    hundreds of confused concert-goers hit the ground in panic, witnesses and police said. 3
    people, including one woman investigators described as an innocent bystander, died. (3 dead, 2
    wounded in Houston club shooting, CBS 5 News Channel, June 20, 2012)1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
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    5 Updated 12/14/2012
    Auburn, AL
    06/09/2012
    A 22 year old man opened fire at University Heights apartments off West Longleaf Drive. The
    shooting left three men dead, including two former Auburn University football players, and three
    others wounded. (Manhunt on for suspect in Auburn mass shooting, Dothan Eagle, June 10
    2012)
    Oklahoma City, OK
    5/23/2012
    A 16-year-old boy is in custody and suspected of opening fire after an NBA game on Monday,
    injuring eight people. Three of the people shot were bystanders, while five had been involved in
    the group clashes, which revolved around “high school, girls-and-boys stuff”. (Police say 16-
    year-old shot eight outside NBA game, Chicago Tribune, May 23 2012)
    Chicago, IL
    5/26-29/2012
    Last year Chicago saw four people slain during Memorial Day weekend. This year the city saw
    40 shootings and 10 murders over the four-day weekend (Chicago’s Memorial Day Weekend
    Was Terrible, Atlantic Wire, May 29, 2012)
    Seattle, WA
    05/30/2012
    40-year-old Ian Stawicki entered a Seattle cafe on Wednesday and opened fire, killing four
    people. He then left Cafe Racer, killing another person during a carjacking before taking his own
    life. (Seattle Mass Shooting Latest by a Concealed Handgun Permit Holder, Huffingtonpost,
    June 1 2012)
    Gilbert, AZ
    05/01/2012
    Four people killed by a former neo-Nazi before he turned the gun on himself. The killer shot
    and killed his girlfriend and three others, including a toddler as a result of a domestic dispute.
    (Armored gunman, 4 people dead in Arizona shooting, msnbc, May 2, 2012)
    Tulsa, OK
    4/6/2012
    Three were killed and two wounded severely early Friday morning in four separate incidents
    during a span of less than two hours. Two men were arrested in the crimes. All of the
    victims were targeted while they were out walking, and apparently did not know each other.
    Hate crime charges were being evaluated. (Two Men Arrested, Facebook Clues in Tulsa
    Shooting Spree, ABC News, April 8, 2012)
    Oakland, CA
    04/02/2012
    Seven people were killed and three others wounded in a shooting rampage Monday at an Asian
    religious vocational school in east Oakland; police later detained the suspected gunman. (7
    Dead, 3 Wounded In Shooting At Oakland Religious School; Gunman In Custody, CBS San
    Francisco, April 2 2012)1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
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    6 Updated 12/14/2012
    North Miami, FL
    03/30/2012
    Fourteen people have been shot and two are dead outside a funeral home in South Florida.
    One of the victims, a 43-year-old man, died at the scene while the other, a 27-year-old man,
    died at the hospital. A 5-year-old girl was shot in the leg and hospitalized at Jackson Memorial
    Hospital along with eleven other victims. (“Grandma, I’ve Been Shot” Said Girl Hurt In Gang
    Related Mass Shooting, CBS Miami, March 31 2012)
    Waller, TX
    03/20/2012
    Trey Sesler massacred his mother, father, and brother in their home in Waller, Texas. He was
    found by police the next day. A high-caliber rifle was used. It later emerged the killer was also
    planning a Columbine-style massacre at a local high school. (Man suspected of killing family
    captured, click2houston.com, March 21, 2012)
    Pittsburgh, PA
    3/8/2012
    A gunman opened fire in the lobby of a psychiatric hospital in Pittsburgh on Thursday, killing
    one person and wounding seven, including a police officer, officials said. The gunman was also
    said to have died. (2 Die and 7 Are Wounded in a Shooting in Pittsburgh, New York Times,
    March 8, 2012)
    Tempe, AZ
    3/3/2012
    As hundreds of fans waited in line to see Hussle, fights and arguments broke out, police said.
    They also said some fans were drinking beer in the parking lot. Three men opened fire on rival
    gang members and fled, police said. All 14 of the people shot are expected to survive, including
    the two seriously wounded, Lt. Mike Horn said. (Tempe concert mass shooting: Rapper decries
    gun violence, Tucson Citizen, March, 3, 2012)
    Chardon,OH
    2/27/2012
    T.J. Lane has told police that he took a .22 caliber Ruger pistol and a knife to the school on
    Monday and randomly fired 10 shots into a group of students sitting at a table, according to
    prosecutors. Daniel Parmertor, 16; Demetrius Hewlin, 16; and Russell King, 17; were killed.
    Nick Walczak, 17, remains in serious condition in a hospital with neck and back injuries, and
    another student has been released from the hospital. (Suspect in Ohio school shooting charged
    with murder, Washington Post, March 1, 2012)
    Jackson, TN
    2/26/2012
    Police said one person was killed and 20 others were injured early Sunday in a shooting at a
    Tennessee nightclub. An apparent dispute between several people at the Karma Lounge in
    Jackson led to at least three people opening fire, according to a press release from the Jackson
    Police Department. The club was hosting an after-party for a basketball game between Lane
    College and Lemoyne-Owen College. (Police: 1 killed, 20 injured in shooting at Tennessee
    nightclub, Fox News, February 26, 2012)
    Norcross, GA1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    7 Updated 12/14/2012
    2/21/2012
    Norcross police on Thursday identified the gunman as the 59-year-old Paek, and the victims as
    Byong Ok Kang, 64; Kum Hi Song, 61; Kum Sook Kim, 57, and Tae Yol Kim, 55. Surveillance
    camera footage shows Paek walking into the business and talking to one of the victims before
    shots were fired, police said. Paek is accused of killing his two sisters and their husbands before
    turning the gun on himself. (Witness to Norcross mass shooting: ‘It was horrible’, Atlanta
    Journal-Constitution, February 23, 2012)
    Philadelphia, PA
    1/10/2012
    Police late Wednesday arrested a man after three teenagers were shot dead in an ambush in
    Philadelphia, according to a report. The Philadelphia Inquirer reported that another teenager
    was also wounded in the attack Tuesday night. (3 Teens shot dead in Philly ambush.US News
    MSNBC.com, January 12, 2012)
    Grapevine, TX
    12/25/2011
    On Christmas morning, police have said, a middle-aged man dressed in a Santa Claus suit shot
    and killed a man, a teenage boy and four women and then himself inside a unit at the Lincoln
    Vineyards Apartments in the 2500 block of Hall-Johnson Road. The attack was planned,
    investigators said. (Police say gunman in Christmas shootings planted gun on victim.
    Grapevine Courier December 28, 2011)
    Bayonne, NJ
    12/19/2011
    Three people, including an infant, were shot dead Monday night before the shooter turned the
    gun on himself, authorities told NBC New York. The gunman shot two adults and the infant, then
    killed himself, based on initial reports from the scene in Bayonne, N.J., Mayor Mark Smith said.
    (Officials: 3 adults, infant killed in ‘murder-suicide’. NBC December 19, 2011)
    Irwindale, CA
    12/16/2011
    Robert Scott Lindsay, 53, of Chino Hills and Henry Serrano, 56, of Walnut were killed Friday
    when Andre Turner, 48, of Norco opened fire in the office with a semiautomatic handgun, then
    took his own life. Two others, Angela Alvarez, 46, of Glendale, an Edison employee, and Abhay
    Pimpale, 38, of Montebello, a contract worker, were wounded and in critical condition. (Edison
    office shooting victims, killer identified. LA Times, December 17, 2011)
    Emmington, IL
    12/16/2011
    Five people, including three children, were found shot to death Friday afternoon at a home in
    the small town of Emington, IL., NBCChicago.com reported. The bodies of a woman, a girl and
    a baby were found in the backyard of home. A man and a boy were found nearby. All had been
    shot, officials said. The names of the victims haven’t yet been publicly released. (3 children, 2
    adults shot dead at Illinois home. MSNBC December 16, 2011)
    Cambridge, MA
    12/9/20111225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    8 Updated 12/14/2012
    Three people have been fatally shot and killed in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The suspected
    shooter, a retired police officer later committed suicide. (Victims identified in Cambridge, Mass.
    triple shooting. NECN December 11, 2011)
    Bay City, TX
    11/30/2011
    All four of the children wounded in a mass shooting in east Texas have died, police confirmed
    Thursday. The children’s mother was wounded in the shooting Wednesday afternoon and
    airlifted to a hospital in Houston, according to police. (4 children dead in Texas mass shooting.
    CNN December 1, 2011)
    Oakland, CA
    11/29/2011
    A 23-month-old toddler who was hit in the head by a bullet during a shooting rampage in
    Oakland has died from his injuries. Lawrence was shot in the head and six other people were
    wounded on Nov. 28 when three hooded assailants opened fire on a group filming a rap music
    video at 7th and Willow Streets. At least two people in the group returned fire. (Hiram Lawrence,
    toddler shot in Oakland, dies. ABC December 9 2011)
    Wichita, KS
    11/27/2011
    Four people were shot outside a south Wichita gas station early Sunday morning and police are
    still working to determine what happened. Emergency dispatchers were soon notified shooting
    victims had arrived at Wesley Medical Center and at Via Christi-St. Joseph hospital. All four are
    said to be in serious condition with non-life-threatening injuries. (Police Looking For 5th
    Suspect In Quadruple Shooting. Kakeland News, November 27, 2011)
    Guilford County, NC
    11/20/2011
    Deputies believe Mary Ann Holder, 36, shot two sons, a niece, a nephew, the girlfriend of one of
    her sons and Holder’s estranged boyfriend before shooting and killing herself. Five of the
    victims were 17 or younger. All of the children including Mary Ann were killed, the estranged
    boyfriend is the only survivor of the shooting. (Pleasant Garden Hit Hard by Sunday
    Shooting.Fox8, November 21, 2011)
    Orange County, CA
    10/12/2011
    Seal Beach police allege that Dekraai, an ex-marine, entered Salon Meritage in Seal Beach,
    Calif., wearing a bullet-proof vest and opened fire, killing six people immediately. The six victims
    were declared dead at the scene. Three people were hospitalized with severe wounds and two
    of them later died, police said. One of the victims was Dekraai’s ex-wife the apparent target.
    (Seal Beach Massacre: Suspect’s Ex-Wife Claimed Abuse. ABC, October 13, 2011)
    Anchorage, AK
    10/10/2011
    Outside J.J Lounge, a bar in Anchorage, two men were killed and two others were injured
    during a morning shooting. A witness reported that the gunman repeatedly shot another man in
    the bar’s parking lot. The gunman continued to shoot the man point-blank after the victim put his 1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
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    9 Updated 12/14/2012
    arms in the air in what appear to be a defensive position. (Anchorage man arrested on assault,
    weapons charges after bar shooting that killed 2, injured 2. Washington Post, October 11,
    2011)
    Newark, NJ
    10/10/2011
    Four people were left wounded after gunshots were fired at a housing complex. The shooting
    took place in the Kemsco Village complex. Witnesses stated there were around 15 to 20 shots
    fired at 1 in the afternoon. Police believe the shots were drug motivated. (Newark Shooting May
    Be Drug-Related: Cops, NBC New York, October 11, 2011)
    Chicago, IL
    10/8/2011
    In the span of one night, 3 people were killed and twenty were injured in the city of Chicago. The
    injured victims include 10 teenagers, including a kid who was accidently shot by a man showing
    him a gun. Two men and one woman were killed. (At least 3 dead, 20 injured in Chicago
    shooting overnight. Associated Press October 8
    ,
    2011)
    Dallas, TX
    10/8/2011
    Eight people were left dead after confrontation between rival gangs at Rolls Royce Club. The
    two gangs are the Garland Gang and Bonton Gang. A local rapper was about to the stage when
    he began to argue with another man, who took out a gun and shot the rapper three times and
    then turned his gun to the rest of the crowd (Eight Dead in Dallas Rap Gang Shooting,
    AllVoice.com October 8, 2011.)
    Cupertino, CA
    10/5/2011
    Three workers were killed and seven more injured at a cement plant during the early morning.
    The gunman began shooting during a safety meeting with more than a dozen co-workers. After
    shooting coworkers, the gunman retrieved an AK-47 he had brought and fled the scene and
    police began a day long manhunt. (California Police Search for Gunman in Shooting That Left
    Three Workers Dead, Officer.com October 6, 2011)
    Carson City, NV
    9/6/2011
    A gunman opened fire killing four and injuring seven at an IHOP. The gunman used an assault
    rifle on customers before turning the gun on himself. The weapon used had been altered to
    function as an automatic weapon. The gunman had a record of mental illness. (Shooter Used
    Illegally Altered Gun in Nevada IHOP Rampage, Police Say myFOXdc.com October 5, 2011)
    Jacksonville, FL
    8/28/2011
    About 100 people were at a birthday party for two women when shooters opened fire about 8:45
    p.m. at a park in the city’s Brooklyn neighborhood. Eleven people were wounded in the gunfire.
    The victims included an 18-month-old toddler and two pregnant women, one of whom lost her
    29-week unborn child. (All But 1 Released From Hospital in Mass Shooting at Jacksonville
    Party, Florida Times-Union, August 29, 2011)
    Philadelphia, PA1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
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    10 Updated 12/14/2012
    8/22/2011
    Six people were injured during a shootout — one critically — at a local league basketball game
    attended by 500 people in the city’s Kingsessing section. The victims were innocent bystanders
    who happened to be near the apparent intended target.
    (Six injured In Shooting at Kingsessing Basketball Game. Philadelphia Inquirer, August 23,
    2011)
    Lynden, WA
    8/20/2011
    A 15-year-old boy was charged in the shooting of two men and a woman and the stabbing of a
    third man at the Northwest Washington Fair. The victims were ages 18 to 23.
    (15-year-old arrested in Lynden fair shootings, stabbing. The Bellingham Herald, August 22,
    2011)
    Kansas City, MO
    8/13/2011
    At least three youths were injured in shootings on the city’s Country Club Plaza, where a melee
    erupted in which Mayor Sly James was shoved to the ground. The victims were two boys and a
    girl, ages 13, 15 and 16.
    (Three youths injured in Plaza shootings. The Kansas City Star, August 14, 2011)
    Copley, Ohio
    8/7/2011
    A 51-year-old Ohio man went on a neighborhood shooting rampage, killing seven and leaving
    victims in three homes before being shot and killed in a gunfight with a police officer and a
    former officer. The victims included his girlfriend, whom he wounded in one house. He then ran
    to a neighboring home and murdered her brother and four other people, including two
    teenagers. Afterward, he chased two bystanders through backyards, shooting to death one
    outside a home, before entering another house and killing his girlfriend’s 11-year-old nephew.
    He was killed after he left the home.
    (Gunman kills seven in Copley Twp. then is killed himself, Akron Beacon Journal, August 8,
    2011)
    Auburn, WA
    7/24/2011
    A man entered a casino seeking a woman believed to be his girlfriend or wife. He found her
    dancing with another man and promptly pulled a gun and began firing. He shot seven people
    including the woman and the man with whom she was dancing. Two of the victims were in
    critical condition. (Police 7 wounded in casino shooting near Seattle, ASSOCIATED PRESS, July
    24, 2011)
    Apopka, FL
    7/24/2011
    A teenager armed with a handgun opened fire after a fight broke out at a birthday party. The
    teen fired numerous rounds leaving nine other teens aged between 15 and 19 years old
    wounded. (9 wounded in house party shooting in central Fla., ASSOCIATED PRESS, July 24,
    2011)
    Stockton, CA
    7/23/ 20111225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    11 Updated 12/14/2012
    A 15-year-old was killed and eight others were wounded during a late night party in a backyard.
    The unidentified shooter is believed to have entered neighbor’s backyard and started firing over
    the fence. (Teen killed, 8 wounded in birthday party shooting, ASSOCIATED PRESS, July 24,
    2011)
    Grand Prairie, TX
    7/23/2011
    A man shot and killed his estranged wife along with four other family members before killing
    himself during a birthday party for one of his children at a roller skating rink. One of the victims
    was only 16 years old. Authorities believe the shooting was prompted by ongoing marital
    problems between the man and his wife. His two children were not physically harmed. (Police:
    Father opens fire at roller rink during child’s birthday party, CNN, July 24, 2011)
    Grand Rapids, MI
    7/7/2011
    A man shot and killed himself during a hostage standoff with police following his shooting
    rampage that left seven dead and two others wounded. The victims included two ex-girlfriends
    of the shooter and their families. The man killed two young girls aged eleven and twelve, the
    latter was his own daughter. (Police say man kills 7 people, including daughter, then himself,
    CNN, July 8, 2011)
    Bechtelsville, PA
    7/2/2011
    Two couples and a two-year-old boy were all shot in their country vacation home by a lone
    gunman seeking revenge from an insurance dispute with one of the victims. All five victims were
    shot in the head. Two were killed, including the infant. Another would die later in the hospital,
    while the other victims remained in critical condition. The gunman was tracked down by police
    and killed in a shootout with several officers. (A Bloodbath in a Country Home, Then a Siege on
    a Vengeful Man, NEW YORK TIMES, JULY 4, 2011)
    Lauderdale Lakes, FL
    6/30/2011
    Two men were involved in a dispute over a girl at a crowded nightclub when one of the men
    pulled out a gun. An armed security guard of the nightclub drew his own firearm and
    commanded the man to put down his weapon. The man refused and gunfire erupted leaving
    both armed men dead and ten innocent bystanders wounded by gunshots. (2 dead, 10
    wounded in club shooting, WSVN-TV MIAMI AND FT. LAUDERDALE NEWS, JUNE 30, 2011)
    Long Island, NY
    6/20/2011
    At a local pharmacy a man shot and killed four people including an 18-year-old who was set to
    graduate later in the week. The shooting seems to have been part of a robbery as painkiller
    medications were stolen. (Alison Fox and Tamer El-Ghobashy, ‘Senseless’ Killings Link Four
    Victims, Wall Street Journal, June 21, 2011)
    Youngstown, OH
    2/6/2011
    One person was killed and 11 were injured in a shooting at an after-hours party near the
    Youngstown State University campus. The deceased was a university student. Six of the injured 1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    12 Updated 12/14/2012
    were also students at the university. Two suspects were arrested. (2 suspects charged in
    Youngstown fraternity shooting, Cleveland Plain Dealer, February 6, 2011)
    West Union, OH
    4/30/2011
    Four people were found dead at a home in rural southern Ohio. Investigators believe they were
    shot with a semiautomatic weapon. The victims, all female, were 11, 34, 46 and 68. An 11-yearold girl who was also in the home was unharmed. The suspect, a 27-year-old man, was living at
    the home. He had an expired concealed-carry permit. The man was facing felony burglary
    charges and had failed to appear in court. He died in a shootout with Columbus police. (4 slain
    in Ohio; suspect dies in police shootout, Associated Press, April 30, 2011)
    Irvington, NJ
    3/25/2011
    Five men were shot outside a nightclub in Irvington, New Jersey. One of the victims died. The
    surviving victims are believed to have non-life threatening injuries. The shootings took place
    around at 4:30 p.m. when witnesses in the area said they heard at least six gunshots. No motive
    was immediately determined and no suspect was immediately named. (1 dead, 4 hurt in N.J.
    bar shooting, Associated Press, March 27, 2011)
    Portland, OR
    3/20/2011
    Police found three men injured at the scene of a Northeast Portland shooting. A fourth victim
    later arrived at a local hospital with a gunshot wound. Investigators learned that a disturbance
    began inside a party at a nearby residence. Gunshots were fired inside the residence and
    outside in the street. (Portland gang detectives investigate early morning shooting, THE
    OREGONIAN, March 20, 2011)
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    3/15/2011
    A multiple shooting and suicide left four people dead. The gunman shot and killed his mother,
    grandson and uncle when he was told he needed to move out of the home in which all four
    lived. After fatally shooting his three victims, he killed himself. The shooter had been arrested on
    drug and weapons charges a few days earlier. Police found three handguns at the scene. All
    three weapons had been used in the killings. (Rita Farlow and Ileana Morales, Four killed in
    Tarpon Springs murder-suicide, police say, St. Petersburg Times, March 16, 2011)
    Burlington, CO
    3/2/2011
    A 12-year-old boy was arrested after a shooting that killed a husband and wife and their two
    children; a five-year-old girl and a nine-year-old boy. The shooter was related to the victims.
    Burlington is a farming community of about 4,400 residents located near the Colorado border
    with Kansas. (Kim Posey, 12-year-old accused of killing parents may face life in prison, KDVRTV Fox 31 Denver, March 3, 2011)
    Youngstown, OH
    2/6/2011
    One person was killed and 11 were injured in a shooting at an after-hours party near the
    Youngstown State University campus. The deceased was a university student. Six of the injured 1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    13 Updated 12/14/2012
    were also students at the university. Two suspects were arrested. (2 suspects charged in
    Youngstown fraternity shooting, Cleveland Plain Dealer, February 6, 2011)
    Jacksonville, FL
    2/5/2011
    At least five people were hospitalized in a multiple shooting in northwest Jacksonville. (At Least
    5 Victims in Moncrief Shootings, WJXT-TV, February 5, 2011)
    Tucson, AZ
    1/8/2011
    Six people were killed and 13 were injured, including a U.S. Congressman, when a gunman
    armed with a semiautomatic weapon opens fire at a meet-and-greet with Rep. Gabrielle Giffords
    outside a shopping center. The gunman, a mentally-ill 22-year-old, shot 32 rounds in 16-
    seconds before being subdued while trying to reload. (Shailagh Murray and Sari Horwitz, Rep.
    Gabrielle Giffords shot in Tucson rampage; federal judge killed, Washington Post, January 9,
    2011)
    Prince George’s Co., MD
    1/4/2011
    One person was killed and three people were hurt in the Hillcrest Heights/Marlow Heights area.
    (5 slayings in 4 days jolt Pr. George’s, The Washington Post, January 5, 2011)
    South San Francisco, CA
    12/22/2010
    Two people were killed and four others wounded on a street corner in the evening in a drive-by
    shooting. (Peter Fimrite, 2 dead, 4 wounded in South San Francisco shooting, SAN FRANCISCO
    CHRONICLE, December 22, 2010)
    Sacramento, CA
    12/14/2010
    A woman was killed and five others wounded in a gun battle at a strip mall. (1 Dead, 5 wounded
    in shooting at Sacramento strip mall, LOS ANGELES TIMES, December 14, 2010)
    Memphis, TN
    12/12/2010
    Five men were shot at nightclub early in the morning because someone was “pushing”. (Jody
    Callahan, 5 men injured in club shooting, MEMPHIS COMMERCIAL APPEAL, December 12, 2010)
    St.Louis, MO
    11/30/2010
    Two people were killed and another two wounded outside a funeral home in an on-going feud
    between local gangs. (Nicholas Pistor, Two dead in shooting outside St. Louis funeral home,
    ST.LOUIS POST DISPATCH, November 30, 2010)
    Cleveland, OH
    11/28/2010
    An argument at a motorcycle club early in the morning lead to five people being shot and one
    beaten. (Stan Donaldson, Six people injured after shooting at motorcycle club, CLEVELAND
    PLAIN-DEALER, November 29, 2010)1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    14 Updated 12/14/2012
    Richmond County, GA
    11/28/2010
    Five people were shot at a club early in the morning. Police believe several people are
    responsible for the shooting. (Suspects sought after 5 people shot at club, AUGUSTA
    CHRONICLE, November 29, 2010)
    Bonne Terre, MO
    11/24/2010
    A man arrived at his ex-girlfriend’s apartment and opened fired, killing his ex-girlfriend, her
    mother and that woman’s boyfriend. He shot himself fatally when confronted by officers. An 18-
    month-old and a 3-year-old were present during the shooting, but left unharmed. (Police try to
    learn what spurred Duplex shootings, ASSOCIATED PRESS, November 30, 2010)
    Erie, PA
    11/13/2010
    In an apparent murder-suicide, a man shot his wife, two daughters, and himself to death.
    (Parents, 2 kids found shot to death in Western PA, ASSOCIATED PRESS, November 13, 2010)
    Atlanta, GA
    10/30/2010
    Four people were hit in a drive-by shooting at a nightclub during a Halloween party. One of the
    men and the bartender were shot in the head, and the two other victims were transported to the
    hospital in stable condition. (4 Shot in Atlanta Driveby, WSB-TV 2 ATLANTA, November 30,
    2010)
    Chicago, IL
    10/25/2010
    A man killed a woman, her nine-year-old daughter, another 16-year-old girl, and her partner’s
    four-year-old son in an apartment. (3 Dead in Harvey Shooting: Two Children Fatally Shot,
    ASSOCIATED PRESS, October 10, 2010)
    Oklahoma City, OK
    10/13/2010
    Five people were wounded in a shooting outside two churches. The shooting is thought to be
    gang related. (Carla Hinton, One dead, 5 wounded in northwest Oklahoma City shooting, THE
    OKLAHOMAN, October 15, 2010)
    Boston, MA
    9/28/2010
    Four people were shot to death on a street early in the morning, including a 21-year-old woman
    and her two-year-old son who was cradled in her arms. The other two male victims were found
    naked, sprawled on the ground. A third male also lay naked clinging to life after attempting to
    flee. Law enforcement officials believe the shooting was possibly a drug deal that went bad.
    (City, Residents reeling after Mattapan slayings, BOSTON GLOBE, September 28, 2010)
    East Orange, NJ
    9/25/2010
    Five people were shot at an off-campus Seton Hall house party. Students said the shooter was
    kicked out of the party when he refused to pay the cover charge. (Witness Describes ‘Hell’ 1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    15 Updated 12/14/2012
    During Fatal Shooting Rampage at ‘Typical Fraternity Party’, ASSOCIATED PRESS, September
    26, 2010)
    Seattle, WA
    9/23/2010
    A schizophrenic grandmother armed with a handgun killed her 14- and 17-year-old
    granddaughters and her 43-year-old son-in-law, and injured her 42-year-old daughter. (Casey
    McNerthney, Family: Grandmother in shooting spree battled schizophrenia, SEATTLE POSTINTELLIGENCER, September 25, 2010)
    Bay Shore, NY
    9/11/2010
    After an argument, two people with handguns opened fire, injuring five people outside a bar
    early in the morning. (Kaitlyn Piccoli, Five People Shot outside Bay Shore bar, LONG ISLAND
    PRESS, September 9, 2010)
    Chesapeake, VA
    9/11/2010
    Two people opened fire on a group having a cookout in a park next to a middle school. Four
    adults and a 14-year-old were injured. (Jennifer Jiggets, Suspects sought in Chesapeake
    shooting that wounds 5, VIRGINIAN-PILOT, September 13, 2010)
    Lancaster, CA
    9/6/2010
    At least one gunman opened fire at a crowded house party, killing a 14-year-old girl and injuring
    six others. The injured victims range in age from 13 to 26 years old. (Detectives seek leads in
    Lancaster shooting that left girl, 14, dead and 6 others wounded, LOS ANGELES TIMES,
    September 6, 2010)
    New Orleans, LA
    9/5/2010
    A woman was fatally shot in the head and four others were wounded on a street corner. (Rick
    Martin, 1 killed, 4 hurt in New Orleans shooting, CNN, September 5, 2010)
    Durham, NC
    9/5/2010
    Ten people inside a home were injured in drive-by shooting. (10 wounded in Durham drive by
    shooting, WRAL – TV 4 RALEIGH/DURHAM, September 10, 2010)
    Chicago, IL
    9/2/2010
    Four men were fatally shot execution-style in a garage. The men’s hands, feet and mouths
    were bound with duct tape. Multiple weapons were found at the scene. (Relatives sat slaying of
    4 men in garage a mystery, WGN- CHICAGO, September 3, 2010)
    Louisa, VA
    8/22/2010
    At least four people were wounded and two killed when someone opened fire over a property
    dispute. When police arrived, the suspect attacked police and they killed him. Several victims 1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    16 Updated 12/14/2012
    were family members of the shooter. (Portia Smith, Louisa shootout leaves 3 dead,
    FREDERICKSBURG NEWS, August 23, 2010)
    Hartford, CT
    8/3/2010
    A disgruntled employee, who claimed he had been harassed because he was African-American,
    opened fire at the beer distribution factory where he worked. He had just attended a disciplinary
    hearing relating to his theft of beer from the company before the shooting. He killed eight
    people and injured two before calling his girlfriend and then taking his own life. (Ray Rivera,
    Troubles Proceeded Connecticut Workplace killing, NEW YORK TIMES, August 3, 2010)
    Indianapolis, IN
    8/3/2010
    Three men armed with an assault rifle and a handgun ambushed a backyard birthday party and
    shot seven people. A 37-year-old woman and a 54-year-old man died from their injuries. An
    eighth person was injured when someone at the party returned fire at the shooters, but shot a
    bystander instead. (Jon Murray, Murder charges filed against 3 in gunfight birthday party,
    INDIANAPOLIS STAR, August 21, 2010)
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    7/30/2010
    Five people were shot outside of a nightclub. (Alexa Campbell, Police identify five victims shot
    outside Fort Lauderdale Night Club, PALM BEACH POST NEWS, July 30, 2010)
    Dallas, TX
    7/9/2010
    A man killed his pregnant girlfriend, their two kids and himself. He shot their third child, age
    seven, in the face but she survived. He had a history of domestic violence and the victim had a
    restraining order against him. (Michael Barrett, Court records foreshadow day of four deaths in
    Dallas, GASTON GAZETTE, July 12, 2010)
    Richmond, Va
    7/3/2010
    Police responded to a call reporting random gunfire at a public-housing complex. Officers found
    five people with gunshot wounds within two blocks. (Jeremy Slayton, 5 wounded in Richmond
    shooting, RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH, July 5, 2010)
    East Point, GA
    6/26/2010
    At least two people attending began shooting when a fight broke out at a large party at an
    apartment complex. Four people were injured and one was killed. The victims were described
    as teens or younger adults. (Jay Black, 5 Shot, 1 Dead During Party in East Points, WSB NEWS
    RADIO ATLANTA, June 27, 2010)
    San Bernardino, CA
    6/19/2010
    A 56-year-old man opened fire in a restaurant, killing his stepdaughter’s husband and their sixyear-old son before fatally shooting himself in the head. The man also critically wounded his
    stepdaughter and her 5-year-old son. Authorities said the shooter had a lengthy criminal record 1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    17 Updated 12/14/2012
    that included charges of theft DUI and assault with a deadly weapon. (Victoria Kim, 2 people
    killed in Del Taco shooting are identified, LOS ANGELES TIMES, June 19, 2010)
    Coney Island, NY
    6/9/2010
    Four people were wounded during a shooting when a dispute involving a man and a 16-year-old
    girl turned violent. The girl’s brother came outside to stop the fight, and gunshots were fired. The
    girl, her brother, and mother were all wounded in the incident. (Anahad O’Connor & Colin
    Moynihan, 4 Wounded in Coney Island Shooting, NEW YORK TIMES, June 9, 2010)
    Hialeah, FL
    6/6/2010
    A Cuban immigrant, who had a clean record in the US, but had served time in prison in Cuba,
    opened fire at the restaurant where his wife worked. He shot seven women, killing four, before
    turning the gun on himself. The wife’s family claims he repeatedly abused her. (Shooter Had
    Violent Past, WSVN- TV 7 MIAMI, June 11, 2010)
    New Brighton, MN
    6/6/2010
    A gunman demanded money from people attending a three-year-old’s birthday party a
    community shelter at a trailer park, and then opened fire, injuring four people. (4 injured in New
    Brighton shooting, suspect still at large, KARE – TV 11 MINNEAPOLIS, June 6, 2010)
    West Memphis, AK
    5/20/2010
    A man and his 16-year-old son opened fired with assault weapons on police officers during a
    traffic stop, and then again in a shootout when police tried to apprehend them after the first
    shooting. The two officers involved in the traffic stop were killed and two officers were injured
    during the second shootout; the two suspects were killed by police in the second shootout. The
    adult suspect had multiple run-ins with the law, and was consider a threat to law enforcement
    before the shooting happened. (Zack McMillin and Marc Perrusquia, 2 police officers fatally shot
    in West Memphis, Arkansas, MEMPHIS COMMERCIAL APPEAL, May 22, 2010)
    Tuscaloosa, AL
    5/16/2010
    A man fired a handgun at a graduation party where there were an estimated 100 people in
    attendance. Nine people were struck by the gunshots, two of which were wounded critically and
    one was killed. Witnesses said the shooter got into a physical fight with another group, possibly
    involving gang affiliations. (Stefanie Taylor, Three shooting victims were friends of suspect,
    TUSCALOOSA NEWS, May 18, 2010)
    North Richmond, CA
    5/13/2010
    Three men were killed and one man was injured in a drive-by shooting. Two of them men were
    pronounced dead at the scene and a third died after being taken to the hospital. (3 killed, 1 hurt
    in Richmond shooting, San Francisco Chronicle, May 13, 2010)
    Detroit, MI
    5/3/20101225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    18 Updated 12/14/2012
    Five officers were shot, one fatally, when they responded to a report of gunshots at a vacant
    duplex where drugs were reportedly sold. (Michigan: 5 Officers Are Shot, One Fatally, NEW
    YORK TIMES, May 3, 2010)
    Decatur, GA
    4/15/2010
    Two people died and three others were injured when gunfire erupted in a home. Police believe
    multiple people fired guns during the incident. (Multiple Shooting near Atlanta, 2 dead,
    ASSOCIATED PRESS, April 16, 2010)
    Chicago, IL
    4/14/2010
    Four people were killed, including three children and two others were injured at their home in an
    early morning shooting. A suspect is thought to be related to the victims. (4 dead, 2 wounded in
    Chicago shooting, ASSOCIATED PRESS, April 14, 2010)
    Muskogee, OK
    4/10/2010
    An argument between two gangs lead to a shooting at a crowded mall. A 17-year-old was killed
    and five others were injured. (Deon J. Hampton, Shooting at mall in Muskogee kills teen, TULSA
    WORLD, April 11, 2010)
    Long Beach, CA
    4/5/2010
    A gunman opened fire on a group outside an apartment complex, injuring four people, including
    two teenage girls. Police believe the shooting may have been gang-related. (Joel Rubin, 4
    people injured in Long Beach shooting, LOS ANGELES TIMES, April 5, 2010)
    Omaha, NE
    4/4/2010
    A 19-year-old was charged with shooting four other teenagers on a street corner in the evening.
    (Arrest Made in Multiple Shooting, WOWT-TV 6 OMAHA, April 13, 2010)
    North Hollywood, CA
    4/3/2010
    A gunman opened fire at a restaurant, killing four people and injuring two others. Police believe
    the victims were targeted and Armenian gangsters are responsible. (Restaurant Shooting:
    Armenian Gangs Blamed for “Blood Bath” at L.A. Restaurant, KTLA- TV LOS ANGELES, April 5,
    2010)
    Chicago, IL
    4/2/2010
    Four people were shot on the street after midnight. As emergency responders were taking the
    victims away, someone shot at police at the scene and injured two bystanders. The shooting is
    believed to be gang related. (Pat Curry, Six shot on South Side, CHICAGO TRIBUNE, April 2,
    2010)1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    19 Updated 12/14/2012
    New Orleans, LA
    3/31/2010
    An elderly man fatally shot his wife, her sister, and her mother inside their home. He then turned
    the gun on himself. He survived his attempted suicide. The man had recently been in court
    charges of domestic violence but was acquitted. (Ramon Vargas, Treme triple-murder suspect’s
    poor health a factor in domestic abuse acquittal, TIMES-PICAYUNE, March 31, 2010)
    Aransas Pass, TX
    3/31/2010
    A man shot five people in a mobile home. A 35-year-old woman died from her injuries.
    (Elizabeth Noyola, Shooting in Aransas pass kills 1, 4 others hospitalized: Police search for
    killer, KZTV – TV 10 CORPUS CHRISTI, April 1, 2010)
    Washington, DC
    3/30/2010
    A 14-year-old and three men with an AK-47 assault rifle and two handguns opened fire on a
    group of young adults gathered outside in the evening. Four teenagers, aged 16, 17, 18, and
    19, were killed and five other people were injured. Police believe the shooting may have
    stemmed from a missing a bracelet or was retaliation for a previous shooting. (Clarence
    Williams, Keith L. Alexander & Paul Duggan, D.C. police trace shootings that killed 4 through
    chain of events starting with a man’s missing bracelet, WASHINGTON POST, April 1, 2010)
    Chattanooga, TN
    3/27/2010
    Three people, including a juvenile, are suspected of shooting five people, including three
    juveniles, at Coolidge Park. The shooting happened as police were clearing the park of the
    hundreds of people who had gathered at the park. (3 arrested in shooting at park in eastern
    Tennessee, ASSOCIATED PRESS, March 28, 2010)
    New Orleans, LA
    3/25/2010
    A woman, her seven-year-old daughter, four-year-old son, and 17-year-old sister were each
    shot multiple times in their home. All four victims died. (Ramon Antonio Vargas, Mother, her two
    children and sister in grisly slaying mourned by family members, NEW ORLEANS TIMESPICAYUNE, March 26, 2010)
    Milwaukee, WI
    3/21/2010
    A man shot four people, including a juvenile and a pregnant woman, outside a house early in
    the morning. The victims and shooter had argued earlier. The pregnant victim delivered her
    baby, who was also wounded in the shooting, at the hospital. (Mark Johnson, Baby born
    wounded as shooting injures 5, MILWAUKEE JOURNAL SENTINEL, March 21, 2010)
    Chicago, IL
    3/18/2010
    Four people, including a 14-year-old boy, were shot on the street at night. (4 people wounded in
    West Side shooting, CHICAGO TRIBUNE, March 18, 2010)
    Winnsboro, SC
    3/17/20101225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    20 Updated 12/14/2012
    Two men shot four people during a robbery-attempt. The homeowner fought the burglars who
    fired at several guests. (Tony Santaella, James Gilbert & Lauren Eleazer, 4 People Shot in
    Winnsboro, Suspects in Custody, WLTX –TV 19 COLUMBIA, March 18, 2010)
    Pomona, CA
    3/13/2010
    A gunman opened fire on a group people at an outdoor party in the courtyard of an apartment
    complex. Three men and two women were wounded. (Corina Knoll, Shooting in Pomona leaves
    5 wounded, police say, LOS ANGELES TIMES, March 14, 2010)
    Detroit, MI
    3/11/2010
    A gunman in an SUV opened fire with an assault weapon at another car, hitting all four
    passengers. One man died and a two-year-old boy was critically injured. (Zlati Meyer, Man
    dead, toddler hurt in Detroit shooting, DETROIT FREE PRESS, March 12, 2010)
    New York, NY
    2/22/2010
    A man shot his wife and two teenage daughters to death with an assault rifle before shooting
    and killing himself. He and his wife had been having marital problems for a while before the
    shooting. (Daniel Edward Rosen, Wil Cruz & Edgar Sandoval, Queens father fatally shoots wife,
    daughters, then turns gun on self; leaves note that he’s ‘sorry’, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS,
    February 22, 2010)
    Philadelphia, PA
    2/21/2010
    One man died and three others were injured after being shot outside a bar during a fight
    between two people. (Derrick Nunnally, 1 dead, 3 hurt in shooting at N. Phila. Bar,
    PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER, February 22, 2010)
    Huntsville, AL
    2/12/2010
    A professor opened fire 50 minutes into a Biological Sciences Department faculty meeting at the
    University of Alabama, killing three colleagues and wounding three others. The shooter had a
    history of violence: she shot and killed her brother in 1986, was possibly involved in an
    attempted mail bombing, and was convicted of disorderly conduct, and assault and battery in an
    incident in 2002. The gun used in shooting was bought from the shooter’s husband in 1989 by
    a friend in New Hampshire to avoid a waiting period in Massachusetts. (Emanuella Grinberg,
    Judge sends Alabama university shooting case to grand jury, CNN, March 24, 2010. Aaron
    Cooper & Brooke Baldwin, Police: University shooting suspect was charged after fight in 2002,
    CNN, February 17, 2010)
    Miami-Dade County, FL
    1/24/2010
    Four men pulled up outside an apartment building and opened fire on a group there, killing a 15-
    year-old girl and injuring three other people. The men were armed with an AK-47 assault rifle
    and a shotgun. (Jennifer Lebovich, Police, family seek tips in teen’s drive-by shooting death,
    MIAMI HERALD, February 3, 2010)
    Milwaukee, WI1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    21 Updated 12/14/2012
    1/21/2010
    Five people, including a 20-year-old, were shot outside a tavern. Police recovered shell casings
    from three weapons. (5 Hospitalized After Milwaukee Tavern Shooting, WTAQ – RADIO
    WISCONSIN, January 21, 2010)
    Appomattox, VA
    1/19/2010
    A 39-year-old man shot and killed his sister, her husband, their two children, and four family
    friends in and around the family home. The man also shot at police with an assault rifle when
    they arrived at the scene, and even shot a police helicopter six times, bringing it down. The
    shooter, who first obtained a concealed carry permit in 1995, and owned dozens of weapons,
    including “many” AR-15 assault rifles was badly affected by his mother’s death in 2006 and had
    reportedly become angry about ownership of the family house and land that was left jointly to
    him and his sister. (Fredrick Kunkle & Josh White, Man is charged with murder in 8 Appomattox
    shooting, WASHINGTON POST, January 21, 2010)
    Bellville, TX
    1/17/2010
    A 20-year-old man is charged with shooting and killing his mother, stepfather, sister, brother and
    two-year-old niece at the family home. Police believe an “ongoing family dispute” prompted the
    shooting. (Man charged in southeast Texas family slaying, ASSOCIATED PRESS, January 20,
    2010)
    Oklahoma City, OK
    1/16/2010
    Five people were shot at a club, one fatally, late at night. The suspect was on bail and awaiting
    trial on an armed robbery charge. (Club Shooting Kills 1, Injures 4: Police Called To El Dorado
    Club Just Before Midnight, KOCO- TV 5 OKLAHOMA CITY, January 17, 2010)
    Hernando County & Dixie County, FL
    1/14/2010
    A man shot his sister and her coworker to death and injured his niece and an employee. The
    shooter then fled, shooting and killing a sheriff’s deputy as they pursued him. The shooter had
    a history of troubling behavior: he had been arrested before and was described as being “hostile
    toward law enforcement”, was investigated by the Secret Service for comments about President
    Obama, had attacked his niece and her boyfriend previously, and told family that he wanted to
    “go on a shooting rampage.” (Karen Voyles, Death penalty sought in slaying of Dixie captain,
    GAINESVILLE SUN, March 12, 2010. Lisa Backus, Fla. massacre suspect drew police attention,
    NEW BRITAIN HERALD, January 18, 2010)
    Kennesaw, GA
    1/12/2010
    A 60-year-old man wearing camouflage opened fire at a truck leasing company where he used
    to work. He killed two men and injured three others before fleeing the scene. Four of the
    victims were employees and the fifth a customer. The shooter reportedly had been laid off in
    July. (Mike Morris & Alexis Stevens, Cobb shooter chose victims at random, company official
    says, ATLANTA JOURNAL CONSTITUTION, January, 13, 2010)
    Tulsa, OK
    1/11/20101225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    22 Updated 12/14/2012
    A man opened fire with an AK-47 assault rifle, hitting four people in a house. One person died.
    The group had been celebrating the shooter’s birthday when a fight erupted, prompting the
    shooter to retrieve an AK-47 and fire on fellow celebrants. (Matt Barnard, Tulsa police: Brawl at
    birthday party may have led to shootings, TULSA WORLD, January 12, 2010)
    Tulsa, OK
    1/11/2010
    A 31-year-old man was arrested for shooting four people, one fatally, in the evening. The
    shooting is thought to have been motivated by a quarrel at an earlier social gathering. (1 dead, 3
    wounded, 1 arrested in Tulsa shooting, ASSOCIATED PRESS, January 12, 2010)
    West Odessa, TX
    1/10/2010
    Two 20-year-olds were arrested for shooting five young adults, killing an 18-year-old man early
    in the morning. All five victims were inside when the shooting started. (Shooting Leaves One
    Dead, Four Injured in West Odessa, KWES – TV 9 MIDLAND, TX, January 10, 2010)
    Dallas, TX
    1/10/2010
    Four people were injured when someone in another vehicle opened fire on their car while on the
    freeway. The vehicles’ occupants had gotten into a fight at a nightclub earlier that night. (Dallas
    freeway shooting leaves 4 wounded, ASSOCIATED PRESS, January 10, 2010)
    New Orleans, LA
    1/7/2010
    Two men are suspected of shooting and killing three people and wounding a fourth during a
    home invasion involving narcotics. Two of the deceased victims were shot with an assault rifle;
    the third was shot with a handgun. (Leslie Williams, New Orleans police arrest suspect in St.
    Roch triple homicide, NEW ORLEANS TIMES-PICAYUNE, January 12, 2010)
    St. Louis, MO
    1/7/2010
    A 51-year-old man opened fire at the ABB Power plant where he worked, killing three coworkers and injuring five other, before killing himself. The shooter had sued his employer over
    their pension fund in 2006 and the trial began just this week. The shooter fired over 100 rounds
    and was armed with an assault rifle, a shotgun, and two handguns. (Liz Robbins, Gunman Kills
    3 Co-Workers in St. Louis Factory and Then Himself, NEW YORK TIMES, January 7, 2010.
    Malcom Gay & Liz Robbins, Details Emerge on St. Louis Shooting, but Motive Unclear, NEW
    YORK TIMES, January 8, 2010)
    New Orleans, LA
    1/7/2010
    Four people were shot, three fatally, just before midnight. Three victims were found inside the
    house, and the last was found in the backyard. (3 Dead, 1 Injured in Bywater Shooting, WDSU –
    TV 6 NEW ORLEANS, January 8, 2010)
    Butler, MO1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    23 Updated 12/14/2012
    1/1/2010
    A 26-year-old man shot a 29 year old woman and her 25 year old brother to death at her home
    early in the morning . The woman’s seven year old daughter was injured by a bullet fragment.
    The shooter fled the scene, but police found him several hour later dead by a self-inflicted
    gunshot wound. The shooter was known to be friends with the victims. (Karen Dillion, Brother,
    sister shot to death; police say suspect took his own life, KANSAS CITY STAR, January 1, 2010)
    New Orleans, LA
    12/24/2009
    Five teenagers and a 50 year old man were shot on the street. Police are looking for three
    suspects. (Police Seek 3 Men In Multiple Shooting, WDSU – TV 6 NEW ORLEANS, December
    27, 2009)
    New York, NY
    12/17/2009
    A man shot four members of a family in their apartment, before falling out a window while trying
    to escape. The woman is expected to survive, but her husband, father, and son all died. Police
    believe the shooter had been in jail with the husband, and believe the killings were either drugrelated or a robbery attempt. (Al Baker, Four Men Dead in West Side Shootings, NEW YORK
    TIMES, December 18, 2009)
    San Clemente, CA
    12/14/2009
    A 38 year old woman, her two young daughters, and their grandmother were all shot to death in
    a murder-suicide. Police are not sure who pulled the trigger, but the gun belonged to the
    grandmother. The incident happened shortly after a judge gave temporary custody of the two
    girls to another relative. The family had come to the area from Houston for the custody hearing.
    (Ruben Vives, Grandmother’s gun used in murder-suicide, LOS ANGELES TIMES, December 17,
    2009)
    Mattawa, WA
    12/14/2009
    A 24 year old man is charged with shooting four men, one fatally. The shooter was reportedly
    angry about an alleged rape. (Man charged in Washington state triple homicide, ASSOCIATED
    PRESS, December 17, 2009)
    Grand Junction, CO
    12/13/2009
    A 20 year old man shot five people early in the morning at a party at his neighbor’s house. (Amy
    Hamilton, Suspect in shootings could face 5 counts of attempted murder, GRAND JUNCTION
    DAILY SENTINEL, December 14, 2009)
    West Palm Beach, FL
    12/7/2009
    A gunman in a car opened fire on a group of people, hitting four people, one fatally. The victims
    were part of a small gathering in the front yard of a home. (1 Killed, 3 Injured In W. Palm Beach
    Drive-By Shooting, WPBF – TV 25 WEST PALM BEACH, FL, December 8, 2009)
    Lakewood, WA
    11/29/20091225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    24 Updated 12/14/2012
    A multiple felon ambushed four police officers, shooting and killing them as they were sitting at a
    coffee shop doing paper work before their shifts began. He fled and hid from police for two days
    before an on-duty cop happened upon him and killed him. The shooter had been in jail just the
    week before the shooting for assaulting a police officer and child rape, yet was bailed out of
    jailed even though he had been implicated in a number of other crimes, deemed by
    psychologists as dangerous, and had been in jail in Arkansas for years before his sentence was
    commuted. He had told several family members his plans to kill police in the day before the
    shooting, but nobody reported his comments. (Lewis Kamb, Clemmons’ last days: A timeline of
    tragedy, TACOMA NEWS TRIBUNE, December 2, 2009)
    Osage County, KS
    11/28/2009
    A man shot and killed his estranged wife, her grandmother, and their two teenage daughers
    while they were at home. Their 10 year old son was present but uninjured. The shooter had
    domestic assault charge pending against him for assaulting his wife. (John Hanna, Kan. woman,
    89, dies after shooting; toll up to 4, ASSOCIATED PRESS, December 2, 2009)
    Madison, WI
    11/28/2009
    A man, woman, seven year old boy, and eight year old girl were all shot in their apartment early
    in the morning. Police believe the shooting was a domestic incident, and one of those wounded
    was also the shooter. (Police in Madison say 1 of 4 shot pulled trigger, ASSOCIATED PRESS,
    November 30, 2009)
    Paterson, NJ
    11/28/2009
    A man shot his estranged wife and two sons, killing the seven year old, as she was dropping
    them off at her mother’s to baby-sit so she could go to work. The wife had a restraining order
    against him due to earlier abuse. An off-duty police officer, who witnessed the shooting, shot
    and killed the shooter. (Michael S. Schmidt & Karen Zraick, New Jersey Man Who Shot Family
    Had Been Barred From Seeing Wife, NEW YORK TIMES, November 29, 2009)
    Brockton, MA
    11/28/2009
    Four people were shot, one fatally, at a gas station early in the morning. (23-year-old killed in
    Brockton shooting, 3 others wounded, BROCKTON ENTERPRISE, November 28, 2009)
    Fresno, CA
    11/28/2009
    At least two gunmen opened fire at a large house party, injuring 12 partygoers. Police believe
    the shooting to be gang-related. (A dozen injured at house party shooting, FRESNO BEE,
    November 30, 2009)
    Jupiter, FL
    11/26/2009
    A man shot seven relatives after spending three hours with them celebrating Thanksgiving. His
    six year old cousin, two sisters, one who was pregnant, and elderly aunt all died from their
    injuries. The shooter had a long history of mental illness and troubles with his family. After the
    shooting, he is reported to have said: “’I have been waiting 20 years to do this.” (Kelly Kennedy,
    Dad of victim: 4 Thanksgiving killings preplanned, ASSOCIATED PRESS, December 1, 2009)1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20005 (202) 898-0792 FAX (202) 371-9615
    http://www.bradycampaign.org
    25 Updated 12/14/2012
    Valdosta, G
    11/15/2009
    A shooting at an apartment complex left one person dead and nine people injured after an
    argument erupted among a large group of people. (10 people shot, 1 dead, ASSOCIATED PRESS,
    November 15, 2009)
    Flint, MI
    11/15/2009
    Four people were shot early in the morning in a car. Three died and a 22 year old was seriously
    injured. (Liz Shaw, More details on triple homicide in Flint early Sunday, FLINT JOURNAL,
    November 16, 2009)
    Pearcy, AR
    11/12/2009
    A gumman shot five people to death in a mobile home, then burnt the home down. The suspect
    later opened fire on police as they tried to arrest him, injuring one officer, before police shot and
    killed the suspect. (Authorities shoot, kill suspect in 5 Pearcy deaths, ASSOCIATED PRESS,
    November 20, 2009)
    Montgomery, AL
    11/11/2009
    Two 18 year olds who were refused admittence to a private party opened fire later that night at
    the same party. Five people were wounded and a 17 year old boy was killed. (Montgomery
    police arrest 2 in connection with fatal shooting

  114. Cherry picking data is what you have been doing. You forgot though that along with the stuff on Brady that you want people to see and which is deceptive when presented by itself, there’s a whole lot more there that you don’t want people to see, so you call it cherry picking when people show everything, but not when you show just one thing. Mmm, smacks of hypocrisy to me.

  115. Direct link to gang assessment:

    http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/2011-national-gang-threat-assessment/2011-national-gang-threat-assessment#CurrentGang

    I cannot link directly to the table on that page, but almost 1/8th of law enforcement officials attribute “76-100%” of all violent crime in their jurisdiction to gang members. It’s on that page.

    The FBI cannot identify actual “causes” of many homicides, but use interviews with CLEOs to determine likely “causes” or involvment of gangs. More than 37% of all CLEOs report that gangs are the cause of 50-100% of ALL violent crime in their jurisdictions — and since almost all of the gang activity occurs in urban areas, the discrete amounts of each category of violent crime are weighed heavier (i.e. 10% of violent crime in Chicago is a far higher number than 10% of all violent crime in Greenville, MS).

  116. Everything Brady publishes is cherry picked. Period. They have no desire to present any positive uses of firearms, and ignore the fact that “gun free” countries have higher rates of suicide and injury — but it’s OK because it wasn’t with a gun, right? Thrown out a window? Just fine. Shot with a gun?! ZOMFG!

    Hypocrisy? have a mirror.

  117. It’s amazing that all this undocumented carnage is happening and it’s not recording in CDC WISQARS or in the FBI’s violent crime data. Absolutely amazing. The number of suicides, injuries and homicides from firearm use continues to decline as gun ownership goes up, up, up.

  118. Okay no where does it say that 2/3rds of murders are criminal on criminal. I went through the whole report. There are no actual hard numbers. Also do you believe that England doesn’t have gangs? You’d be wrong if you did. I agree that we should jail anyone who is proved to be a gang member. Automatic life. That would not reduce the murder rate by 66% though, it would reduce it some and in some areas like Chicago by a lot, but not 66% nationally. Gang members in the UK don’t choose not to obey gun laws, they have no choice (most of the time) guns are very very hard to get and very expensive. That said I am actually not in favor of banning firearms. There’s no denying the fact that the rest of the first world has tighter gun controls than we do and they have less gun crime and lower murder rates overall as a result, regardless of who’s doing the shooting.

  119. I’m using the same source you did for your argument. What’s good for the goose and all that..

  120. What including the stuff you used. You Cherry picked one little thing from what they had to try to support your argument. We both got that info from Brady, the exact same place. I smell a Hippo.

  121. >There’s no denying the fact that the rest of the first world has tighter gun controls than we do and they have less gun crime and lower murder rates overall as a result, regardless of who’s doing the shooting

    The UN denies it:

    http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/Homicide_statistics2012.xls

    The USA barely makes the top 100 for rate of murder in the world.

    The anti-gun sheep so desperately want people to only focus on “gun crime” and “gun homicide” as if being murdered with a knife or beaten to death is ok. The reality is that they don’t give a flip about victims of crime unless they are victims of GUN crime.

    The UN says that the USA is exactly 100th in the world for its murder rate. And that’s behind 99 countries that restrict gun rights and private gun ownership. The vast majority of the world, in fact, restricts gun possession, but for some reason doesn’t care that people are still being murdered at alarming rates.

  122. Oh but it is recorded by the CDC and others. You made your bed, now lie in it. You used Brady, but just one small part. You thought it would support what you have to say. When we make the rest of it available and visible you don’t like it. The homicide rate is going down all over the 1st world. However here it is many times higher than the rest of the first world. They have strict gun control laws and lower murder rates, we have very loose gun control laws and much higher murder rate and most of those murders are committed with guns.

  123. I quoted their numbers to refute their implied claim. You posted a propaganda picture that has no attribution.

    Since I am attacking their premise, I do not need to seek their attribution. Since you are purporting to accept and promote their claims, you are required to show attribution, otherwise you’re just posting useless propaganda.

  124. Right, I am attacking their premise so of course I will use their figures, it’s not my responsibility to prove them true.

    You’re trying to assert their other claims as true. They are not true, they intentionally ignore conflicting data.. Prove otherwise.

  125. No, it is not reflected in WISQARS, you’re welcome to post the chart number since you assert otherwise.

    Including suicide figures is disingenuous. As show in Australia, the rate of suicide after gun confiscation did not change from it’s >80 year< average. Yes, "gun suicides" dropped to near zero, but overall suicide figures did not change — suicide is a cultural phenomena.

    And for the small number of serious gun injuries, the vast majority are unintentional and the number is SWAMPED by every other category of nonfatal injury.

    Motorcycles alone are involved in over 200,000 nonfatal injuries per year.
    Dogbites over 350,000
    Poisonings! over 1.2 MILLION

    Gun injuries are 60,000? Wow, that's practically non existent compared to everything else . There are 300 MILLION guns in the USA, but only about 7 million motorcycles (according to NHTSA).

    60,000 injuries? That's a pittance and not remotely a relevant figure.

  126. The murder rate in HI is comparable to that of other 1st world countries and lower than almost all (not all, but almost) all of the rest of the US. My uncle was murdered in a big city that has a very low murder rate (1 per 100k). He was murdered with a baseball bat. I realize that is extremely unusual though and does not prove that that city somehow has a high murder rate. It proves nothing except that he was murdered with a misappropriated tool. It also has a very very low gun ownership rate and is a very large city.

  127. “The UN says that the USA is exactly 100th in the world for its murder rate. And that’s behind 99 countries that restrict gun rights and private gun ownership. The vast majority of the world, in fact, restricts gun possession, but for some reason doesn’t care that people are still being murdered at alarming rates”

    Motive that ALL of the countries that have higher murder rates are 3rd world countries with a few 2nd. World countries like Russia thrown in. No other 1st. World Countries. So although there are lots of countries that have higher murder rates than the USA, none of them are other 1st World Countries. I don’t know about you, but I don’t feel comfortable comparing the USA to 3rd and 2nd. World Countries. I want to be compared to other 1st World Countries.

    UNODC murder rates most recent year (full table here)
    Country Rate Count Region Subregion
    Honduras 91.6 7,104 Americas Central America
    El Salvador 69.2 4,308 Americas Central America
    Côte d’Ivoire 56.9 10,801 Africa Western Africa
    Jamaica 52.2 1,430 Americas Caribbean
    Venezuela 45.1 13,080 Americas South America
    Belize 41.4 129 Americas Central America
    U.S. Vn Islds 39.2 43 Americas Caribbean
    Guatemala 38.5 5,681 Americas Central America
    St Kitts & Nvs 38.2 20 Americas Caribbean
    Lesotho 35.2 764 Africa Southern Africa
    Trnd & Tbgo 35.2 472 Americas Caribbean
    South Africa 31.8 15,940 Africa Southern Africa
    Colombia 31.0 14,670 Americas South America
    Congo 30.8 1,180 Africa Middle Africa
    Cntl Afri Rep 29.3 1,240 Africa Middle Africa
    Bahamas 27.4 94 Americas Caribbean
    Puerto Rico 26.2 983 Americas Caribbean
    Saint Lucia 25.2 44 Americas Caribbean
    Dom Repc 25.0 2,513 Americas Caribbean
    Tanzania 24.5 10,357 Africa Eastern Africa
    Sudan 24.2 10,028 Africa Northern Africa
    St Vin &Gren 22.9 25 Americas Caribbean
    Mexico 22.7 25,757+ Americas Northern America
    Ethiopia 22.5 20,239 Africa Eastern Africa
    Guinea 22.5 2,152 Africa Western Africa
    Dominica 22.1 15 Americas Caribbean
    Burundi 21.7 1,726 Africa Eastern Africa
    DRtC 21.7 13,558 Africa Middle Africa
    Panama 21.6 759 Americas Central America
    Brazil 21.0 40,974 Americas South America
    Eq Guinea 20.7 137 Africa Middle Africa
    Guinea-Bi 20.2 294 Africa Western Africa
    Kenya 20.1 7,733 Africa Eastern Africa
    Kyrgyzstan 20.1 1,072 Asia Central Asia
    Cameroon 19.7 3,700 Africa Middle Africa
    Montserrat 19.7 1 Americas Caribbean
    Angola 19.0 3,426 Africa Middle Africa
    Guyana 18.6 140 Americas South America
    Burkina Faso 18.0 2,876 Africa Western Africa
    Eritrea 17.8 879 Africa Eastern Africa
    Namibia 17.2 352 Africa Southern Africa
    Rwanda 17.1 1,708 Africa Eastern Africa
    Chad 15.8 1,686 Africa Middle Africa
    Ghana 15.7 3,646 Africa Western Africa
    Ecuador 15.2 3,638 Americas South America
    North Korea 15.2 3,658 Asia Eastern Asia
    Benin 15.1 1,262 Africa Western Africa
    Sierra Leone 14.9 837 Africa Western Africa
    Mauritania 14.7 485 Africa Western Africa
    Botswana 14.5 287 Africa Southern Africa
    Zimbabwe 14.3 1,775 Africa Eastern Africa
    Gabon 13.8 200 Africa Middle Africa
    Nicaragua 13.6 785 Americas Central America
    Fr Guiana 13.3 30 Americas South America
    PNG 13.0 854 Oceania Melanesia
    Swaziland 12.9 141 Africa Southern Africa
    Bermuda 12.3 8 Americas Northern America
    Comoros 12.2 85 Africa Eastern Africa
    Nigeria 12.2 18 Africa Western Africa
    Cape Verde 11.6 56 Africa Western Africa
    Grenada 11.5 12 Americas Caribbean
    Paraguay 11.5 741 Americas South America
    Barbados 11.3 31 Americas Caribbean
    Togo 10.9 627 Africa Western Africa
    Gambia 10.8 106 Africa Western Africa
    Peru 10.3 2,969 Americas South America
    Myanmar 10.2 4 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Russia 10.2 14,574 Europe Eastern Europe
    Liberia 10.1 371 Africa Western Africa
    Costa Rica 10.0 474 Americas Central America
    Nauru 9.8 1 Oceania Micronesia
    Bolivia 8.9 884 Americas South America
    Mozambique 8.8 1,925 Africa Eastern Africa
    Kazakhstan 8.8 1,418 Asia Central Asia
    Senegal 8.7 1,027 Africa Western Africa
    T& C Islands 8.7 3 Americas Caribbean
    Mongolia 8.7 239 Asia Eastern Asia
    BV Islands 8.6 2 Americas Caribbean
    Cayman Isls 8.4 5 Americas Caribbean
    Seychelles 8.3 7 Africa Eastern Africa
    Madagascar 8.1 1,588 Africa Eastern Africa
    Indonesia 8.1 18,963 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Mali 8.0 1,157 Africa Western Africa
    Pakistan 7.8 13,860+ Asia Southern Asia
    Moldova 7.5 267 Europe Eastern Europe
    Kiribati 7.3 7 Oceania Micronesia
    Guadeloupe 7.0 32 Americas Caribbean
    Haiti 6.9 689 Americas Caribbean
    Timor-Leste 6.9 75 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Anguilla 6.8 1 Americas Caribbean
    A and Barb 6.8 6 Americas Caribbean
    Lithuania 6.6 219 Europe Northern Europe
    Uruguay 5.9 199 Americas South America
    Philippines 5.4 4,947 Asia South-Eastern Asia
    Ukraine 5.2 2,356 Europe Eastern Europe
    Estonia 5.2 70 Europe Northern Europe
    Cuba 5.0 563 Americas Caribbean
    Belarus 4.9 473 Europe Eastern Europe
    United States 4.8 14,748 Americas Northern America

  128. It’s also worth mentioning that the British count pushing and shoving without injury as a violent crime we do not. 52% of all violent crime in the UK falls into that category.

  129. You were using their figures to try to prove your point. you weren’t attacking it, you were using it as ammunition.

  130. the event with my brother occurred in the late sixties. My only surprise is my younger brother wasn’t involved some how. My dad hunted and only keep the shells he needed (maybe 5) in glove box. So there was no finger print safe to use. Normally he kept the ammo in a tool box locked with a combo lock. By trial and error I learned it by 10. Dragging a chair maybe 20 feet by a 4 year old should not be hard to think off. Loading the gun all it too was to push a slide to the side and lift up gun slightly. It blew a hole about 1 1/2 inch in front of the seat abour 3-4 inch hole on the other side. There was a hole in the ceiling of the car about 10-12 inches (dad had bird shot in glove box) Pellets were everywhere but mostly in back of station wagon

  131. BTW, there are 196 countries in the world so the USA being at 100th place leaves 96 countries ahead of us. That puts us at about the halfway point. We are not ahead of the vast majority of the world. We are at roughly the half-way point. What’s very very damning is that NO first world countries have a higher murder rate than we do. All of the countries with higher murder rates are poverty stricken and often undemocratic 3rd or 2nd. world countries. They are both poor and struggling with the idea of democracy (i.e. they aren’t really democratic). What’s even worse is that there are many 2nd. and 3rd. world countries that actually have lower murder rates than we do.

  132. From the link you just supplied

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6106a1.htm?s_cid=ss6106a1_w

    Introduction
    An estimated 50,000 persons die annually in the United States as a result of violence-related injuries. Homicide is the second leading cause of death for persons aged 15–24 years, the third leading cause for persons aged 1–4 and 25–34 years, and the fourth leading cause for persons aged 5–9 and 10–14 years. Suicide is the second leading cause of death for persons aged 25–34 years, the third leading cause for persons aged 10–14 years and 15–24 years, and the fourth leading cause for persons aged 35–44 and 45–54 years. Only unintentional injury in those aged 1–44 years and malignant neoplasms and congenital anomalies in children aged 1–14 years of age were more common

    Here are some more links from what you supplied. Nice try, but you fail again.

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/ss/ss5904.pdf

    Here’s a rather telling report from the link you provided.

    http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/m0023655/m0023655.asp

    Article

    Injury is the leading cause of death for persons aged 1-44 years in the United States. More than half (55%) of all injury-related deaths are caused by motor vehicles and firearms (1). Although the number of deaths from motor-vehicle crashes has exceeded those from firearms, since 1968, differences in the number of deaths have declined: from 1968 through 1991, motor-vehicle- related deaths decreased by 21% (from 54,862 to 43,536) while firearm-related deaths increased by 60% (from 23,875 to 38,317) (1). Based on these trends, by the year 2003, the number of firearm-related deaths will surpass the number of motor-vehicle crashes, and firearms will become the leading cause of injury-related death (Figure 1). This report compares trends and patterns of deaths resulting from firearm- and motor-vehicle- related injuries in the United States from 1968 through 1991. Information about firearm- and motor-vehicle-related injury deaths was obtained from mortality data files maintained by CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics. Rates were calculated by using population estimates obtained from the U.S. Bureau of the Census

    Here’s some more

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6018a1.htm?s_cid=mm6018a1_w

  133. You missed the real point.

    Being a first world country is no guarantee of being crime free, however, the anti-gun folks like yourself want the world to believe that being “gun free” means being “violent crime” or “murder free.” That’s how it is sold — “turn in your guns and you’ll be safe, we’ll protect you.”

    The proof is in the pudding. The vast majority of countries in the world have VERY strict laws governing gun ownership and most don’t allow it at all.

    The anti-gun folks want everyone focusing on GUN crime and GUN homicide — as if being murdered by some other means is more noble or morally superior.

    Comparing the USA to other “1st world” countries is problematic in every way. Those countries do not have the same law enforcement mechanisms we do. They do not have the same protections of personal liberty or due process that we do. Police in the UK may stop and search anyone they want to, for any reason — this is completely illegal and unconsitutional in the USA. In the UK, you may be detained by police without being charged almost indefinitely — also illegal in the USA. This means that individuals that UK police know to be involved in crime can be held without charge — preventing them from access to crime — whereas in the US they must be released. They can be searched on a whim by police, wheras in the US the police must have probable cause, or minimally, a reasonable suspicion to frisk.

    Police in other European countries have similar powers that do not exist in the USA.

    The real proof of gun control laws isn’t how they perform in one country, or in only “1st World” countries. It is how they perform in EVERY country they exist, and what the murder and violent crime rates are. If every gun is banned, but the murder rate is still 20 times that of the USA, that is one failure. If the vast majority of countries with strict gun control have high murder and violent crime rates — far higher than the USA — then the concept of banning guns/strict gun control is basically useless. It may take guns out of the equation, but the equation ends up the same.

  134. No I didn’t miss the point at all. You wanted to show that the USA compares well, it doesn’t. You can’t use something to support your argument and then turn around and disown, when the fallacies of your argument are pointed out. You can’t compare yourself to the 99 countries that are worse off (all of which are 3rd world countries) and then say a comparison isn’t valid when comparing with other first world countries. You can’t have you cake and eat it too.

    “Being a first world country is no guarantee of being crime free, however, the anti-gun folks like yourself want the world to believe that being “gun free” means being “violent crime” or “murder free.”

    No one believes that being gun free is going to make a country murder free or violent crime free. What being gun free does do, which is borne out by the numbers from other first world countries, is reduce the overall murder rate by making murder much more difficult to commit.

    Also you might want to check your facts before you make statements. You said
    ” In the UK, you may be detained by police without being charged almost indefinitely — also illegal in the USA.”

    This is not true. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/custody/

    “You can’t be kept at a police station for more than 24 hours without being charged, although this can be extended to 36 hours with the authority of a police superintendent, and for up to 96 hours with the authority of a magistrate.

    The one exception is for arrests under the Terrorism Act, where you can be held without charge for up to 14 days.”

    You also said “They can be searched on a whim by police, wheras in the US the police must have probable cause, or minimally, a reasonable suspicion to frisk.”

    Again you are wrong: https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights
    “Stop and search: police powers
    A police officer has powers to stop and search you if they have ‘reasonable grounds’ to suspect you’re carrying:
    illegal drugs
    a weapon
    stolen property
    something which could be used to commit a crime, eg a crowbar”

    Even that is now going to have to be scrapped too. The European Court of Human Rights has declared Britain’s “stop and search” law illegal and has ordered its scrapping, something which the ConDem government is now obliged to do in terms of its continued membership of the European Union. The Home Office appealed the decision, but this week the EU Court refused to hear the appeal and ruled that no further appeals could be made.

    As a result, the Home Office says it is now reviewing counter-terrorism laws.

    You said: “The real proof of gun control laws isn’t how they perform in one country, or in only “1st World” countries. It is how they perform in EVERY country they exist, and what the murder and violent crime rates are. If every gun is banned, but the murder rate is still 20 times that of the USA, that is one failure.”

    Of course it’s a failure, but you only see those failures in 3rd. World countries. If you are going to compare the USA to other countries you need to compare them to countries that have similar legal systems (such as the UK for example) and a similar standard of of living, education etc. You wanted to compare with other countries and used the UN report to try to make your point. But that same report bunches us in with ONLY 3rd world countries, You can’t have it both ways.

    Really before you make statements, you might want to check their accuracy.

  135. Not quite accurate: Switzerland issues a gun to every able-bodied male, who must serve in their military reserves (sometimes till aged 50) or be taxed 3% of gross income if unfit for service. Females may volunteer to serve. Distribution of ammunition for said weapons is tightly regulated and may only be used in cases of war/civil defense (being a neutral country, there is no war). These conscripts are trained and required to keep their personal weapon well-maintained and secure. Gun ownership for private citizens not serving in the militia is regulated with common-sense laws that would make the gun lobby of the US shudder with revulsion.

    Comparing gun ownership and crime statistics is pointless if one does not also assess the differences between the two countries. Here in the United States, we are not required to serve in the military or do any type of civil service. Nearly everyone can own a weapon and carry it around. Most states have no requirement that a gun owner even know how to operate their weapon or be educated in gun safety. A quick Google search offers a generous sample of people who injure themselves or others accidentally with their own weapon.

    Although Switzerland does have a lower gun-related crime rate compared to the US, it is not the lowest in the world, even among nations where gun ownership is legal. The reason that gun advocates cite this statistic is to imply that since everyone owns a gun, criminals are afraid to use them. This is patently ridiculous, especially given the knowledge that concealed carry permits are highly regulated in Switzerland, usually given only to military and security officers. Permit applicants must state a reason for the need of the weapon and are required to pass an exam demonstrating fitness to own and carry the weapon. The permit expires after five years and applies only to the type of firearm specified in the permit. All gun owners must pass a criminal background check and have no known mental health issues or security concerns. Purchases of ammunition are recorded by name at point of sale in a bound book. Ammo for long rifles used for hunting are not regulated or recorded. Semi-automatic weapons are very tightly regulated.

    The gun-related death rate is eight times higher in the United states than that of our economic counterparts in the world, with the highest youth death rate and the highest gun-suicide rate of all industrialized nations. We are also tops for gun ownership in the entire world, of course, without peer. The only nations that outpace our gun violence rates are war-torn or severely economically depressed nations with horrifying statistics on civil rights and poverty.

    Some additional comparisons that you may find interesting: Switzerland has universal (and mandatory) healthcare coverage, a very low poverty rate, 3% unemployment rate, and virtually no homelessness-all factors that contribute to the crime rate in the USA. Switzerland also has one of the lowest marginal tax rates in the world, with a stable economy and one of highest per capita income rates in the world. The banking sector thrives because of the nation’s neutrality and sovereignty, as Mitt Romney knows well. They are also skinnier than we are, damn it! “What America can learn from Switzerland” is a LOT!

  136. Violent crime contains a wide range of offences, from minor assaults such as pushing and shoving
    that result in no physical harm through to serious incidents of wounding and murder. Around a half of
    violent incidents identified by both BCS and police statistics involve no injury to the victim.

    From this United Kingdom Home Office Report. (Copy and paste it)

    http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb1011/hosb1011?view=Binary

    Here’s some more from the same report. You can read it here or go to the URL above.
    There was no statistically significant change in the number of violent crimes estimated by the 2010/11
    BCS compared with the 2009/10 survey (the apparent 6% increase was not statistically significant).
    The underlying trend for violence was downwards on the BCS between 1995 and the 2004/05 survey
    (although not all year-on-year changes were statistically significant) and overall BCS violence fell by
    44 per cent over this period as a whole. Since the 2004/05 BCS, the trend has flattened, with the
    minor year-on-year fluctuations that are to be expected with any survey-based measure being more
    prominent in the absence of a strong directional trend. The 2010/11 BCS showed overall violence was
    down 47 per cent on the level seen at its peak in 1995; representing nearly two million fewer violent
    offences per year.
    The introduction of the NCRS in April 2002 considerably increased the recording of less serious
    violent crime by the police and figures are not directly comparable across this break in the series. In
    more recent years, recorded violence against the person has continued to show declines – with yearon-
    year reductions in the range of four to eight per cent in each of the last four years (down 6%
    between 2009/10 and 2010/11).
    Homicide
    The latest provisional figures showed that there were 642 homicides in 2010/11 (up by 4% from 618 in
    2009/10 and including the 12 victims of the Cumbria shootings in June 2010). Final homicide data,
    extracted from the Homicide Index,3 will be published in January 2012. Caution should be taken in
    looking at short term changes in homicide figures, as they can fluctuate from year to year. Although
    there was an increase of 24 homicides between 2009/10 and 2010/11, there has been a downward
    trend in the number of homicides recorded in recent years. These falls have followed a pattern of
    increasing levels of homicide (at around 2% to 3% a year) from the 1960s through to the end of the
    twentieth century. Taking into account the inherent variability in numbers of homicide from one year to
    the next, a trend analysis showed that levels of homicide incidents are statistically significantly lower
    now than those seen in the early to mid 2000s, and are broadly similar to the levels seen in much of
    the 1990s (Smith et al., 2011). The latest findings do not alter that overall picture and if the provisional
    figure of 642 homicides is confirmed when the final figures from the Homicide Index are published, this
    would represent a fall of 19 per cent in homicides since 2001/02.4
    Use of weapons
    Crimes involving guns or knives are always of great public concern and understandably attract a great
    deal of attention. The number of such crimes is relatively low in volume terms and in a general
    population sample survey such as the BCS the number of victims is too few to produce reliable trend
    estimates. Bespoke data collections from the police provide better information on the number of such
    offences but are limited in covering only those that have come to the attention of the police.
    Provisional5 figures showed that 7,006 firearm offences were recorded in England and Wales in
    2009/10, a 13 per cent decrease from 2009/10 and continuing a downward trend seen since 2005/06.
    The provisional number of firearm offences in 2010/11 is 37 per cent below the number of offences
    recorded in 2005/06.
    3 The Homicide Index is a separate database to the main recorded crime dataset and contains detailed information about each
    homicide recorded by the police in England and Wales. It is updated continually and is therefore a better source of data than
    the main recorded crime dataset.
    4 As measured by the Homicide Index. There are 794 currently recorded homicides for 2001/02 (the 943 currently recorded
    homicides for 2002/03 include the 172 victims of Harold Shipman that were all recorded in 2002/03 but took place over a
    number of years).
    5 Final figures will be published in ‘Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2010/11’ in January 2012
    17

  137. I find the ‘take the guns out of the equation’ to compare murder rates in the US and other countries to be a naive red herring. Yes, many shootings will take place ‘spontaneously’ and it is unlikely in those circumstances that the fatality would have occurred by other means but the reality is that those murders DID occur, and many of them would still occur if guns were not present.
    In the UK we have fatal stabbings regularly occur. It is clear from reports that many of these are ‘spontaneous’. stabbings, in the same way that many of the shootings in the US are.
    If the US had no guns people would still feel the need to arm themselves, and judging by the stats in numbers far higher than other Western countries. So in a way the gun lobby is right – people kill people. Why then is life so much cheaper in the US for so many?

  138. ” UK’s own estimate of violent crime has increased significantly since the Dunblane bans were implemented. And gun crime increased as well. Where is the security and safety we were promised?”

    You keep saying things that are simply untrue.

    According to the U.K. Home Office, the number of injuries resulting from guns has decreased by more than half since 2004. Recorded crimes involving firearms has also shown a steady decrease. There has not been a school shooting since Dunblane in 1996.
    Crimes recorded by the police in England and Wales fell by 8.4% between the years ending September 2011 and September 2012, according to the latest crime statistics. A 41% drop in crime between 2002-03 and 2011-12 for police recorded crime figures. 549 homicides (includes murder, manslaughter and infanticide) were reported in the year ending September 2012, a considerable drop on the previous year’s total of 607. Homicides are now down to around half of the figure for 2001/2.

    Attempted murders also fell, but by a smaller proportion, dropping by 2.7% in comparison to a fall of 9.6% in homicides.

  139. יצחק בּוזוף No I didn’t miss the point at all. You wanted to show that the USA compares well, it doesn’t. You can’t use something to support your argument and then turn around and disown, when the fallacies of your argument are pointed out. You can’t compare yourself to the 99 countries that are worse off (all of which are 3rd world countries) and then say a comparison isn’t valid when comparing with other first world countries. You can’t have you cake and eat it too.

    “Being a first world country is no guarantee of being crime free, however, the anti-gun folks like yourself want the world to believe that being “gun free” means being “violent crime” or “murder free.”

    No one believes that being gun free is going to make a country murder free or violent crime free. What being gun free does do, which is borne out by the numbers from other first world countries, is reduce the overall murder rate by making murder much more difficult to commit.

    Also you might want to check your facts before you make statements. You said
    ” In the UK, you may be detained by police without being charged almost indefinitely — also illegal in the USA.”

    This is not true. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/custody/

    “You can’t be kept at a police station for more than 24 hours without being charged, although this can be extended to 36 hours with the authority of a police superintendent, and for up to 96 hours with the authority of a magistrate.

    The one exception is for arrests under the Terrorism Act, where you can be held without charge for up to 14 days.”

    You also said “They can be searched on a whim by police, wheras in the US the police must have probable cause, or minimally, a reasonable suspicion to frisk.”

    Again you are wrong: https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights
    “Stop and search: police powers
    A police officer has powers to stop and search you if they have ‘reasonable grounds’ to suspect you’re carrying:
    illegal drugs
    a weapon
    stolen property
    something which could be used to commit a crime, eg a crowbar”

    Even that is now going to have to be scrapped too. The European Court of Human Rights has declared Britain’s “stop and search” law illegal and has ordered its scrapping, something which the ConDem government is now obliged to do in terms of its continued membership of the European Union. The Home Office appealed the decision, but this week the EU Court refused to hear the appeal and ruled that no further appeals could be made.

    As a result, the Home Office says it is now reviewing counter-terrorism laws.

    You said: “The real proof of gun control laws isn’t how they perform in one country, or in only “1st World” countries. It is how they perform in EVERY country they exist, and what the murder and violent crime rates are. If every gun is banned, but the murder rate is still 20 times that of the USA, that is one failure.”

    Of course it’s a failure, but you only see those failures in 3rd. World countries. If you are going to compare the USA to other countries you need to compare them to countries that have similar legal systems (such as the UK for example) and a similar standard of of living, education etc. You wanted to compare with other countries and used the UN report to try to make your point. But that same report bunches us in with ONLY 3rd world countries, You can’t have it both ways.

    Really before you make statements, you might want to check their accuracy.

  140. Some studies of behavioral norms have suggested that some cultural norms are much more durable than anyone previously expected. The propensity toward violence can be much harder to extinguish than most people realize.

    As one example, the researchers tracked people whose ancestors originally hailed from an area in the Appalachians known for its remarkably violent history. In this region, homicide had been the leading cause of death for over 100 years (ca. 1810-1920). The researchers found that people whose ancestors had left the area remained markedly more violent and vengeful than the general US population, even three or four generations later.

  141. Some people think that disarming the average American citizen would substantially reduce the number of homicides that occur in the US. Others argue that such measures taken in other countries have seen overall violent crime rates rise afterward instead of fall.

    There is one major factor that is overlooked in most of these arguments: The vast majority of murders are committed by a small subset of the criminal population, not by the “average” criminal. Over 80% of murders are committed by these criminals, who often have a history of other violent offenses. The size of this subset of the criminal population varies regionally, but some studies have claimed that these truly violent offenders are less than 12% of the overall criminal population.

    These people can not easily be disarmed. They WILL get their hands on some sort of weapons, no matter how much effort or cost is involved. These are the same type of criminals as those who manage to fashion “shanks” or “zip guns” in a prison yard: They will certainly find a way to arm themselves while in the free world.

    Any theory that doesn’t address these “superpredators” will fail to meaningfully address violent crime. Historically, the most effective way to shut down their predation is through placing more police officers on the streets and follow up their efforts with vigorous prosecution.

  142. IT’s a real tragedy that the parents left the kids alone with such things.

    However, the CDC says there were 606 people (adults and children) killed in accidents with firearms in 2011. That’s a tiny fraction of the more than 300 million privately owned firearms, held by about 80 million Americans. If you assume each individual is a separate household, that’s 606 out of 80,000,000 homes where there are fatal accidents with a firearm, or if you like decimals, thats 0.000007575%

    There are more people dying in bathtubs.

    It is no less tragic, and the parents should be held to be at fault though.

  143. Sick fucks!

    “The rifle used in the accident is a Crickett designed for children and sold under the slogan “My First Rifle,” according to the company’s website. It is a smaller weapon designed for children and comes with a shoulder stock in child-like colors including pink and swirls.”

  144. Arguing with people that believe guns need to be banned is a worthless endeavor. They want everyone to be helpless and dependent because that is going to somehow help everyone.

    It didn’t help the peaceful protesters in China, Russia, or elsewhere who were killed by an armed Socialistatorship. It didn’t help the Jews in Europe. It won’t help anyone ever.

    The British system is broken, just like China’s and Russia’s and they all want ours to be the same. It nearly is already.

    PEOPLE rob, assault, and harm other people in the UK and there’s nothing they can do to stop it as citizens. It’s learned helplessness and they don’t know anything else. The US is headed in the same direction with the entire world- BACK into the abyss of feudalism where an unarmed populace is PREY.

    Misery loves company. People don’t care enough about each other to protect one another in other countries like they once cared for each other in the US. That’s the only thing that will save this country- respecting and protecting each other’s rights. Otherwise we, too, will just be pigeons strutting around looking for and expecting someone else to feed us, protect us and fight our battles, and disappointed and helpless when we learn no one is going to do it after all.

  145. This is all wrong. The U.K. doesn’t report murders as they happen, but when they solve them. So there are tons of dead people not accounted for. Also, a violent assault death isn’t considered a murder there, but in the U.S. it is. Add to that a self defense killing is also not a murder in the U.K., then we get some more. If you take the real numbers then the U.K. murder rate is 8.5 per 100,000 or about 177% of the US murder rate. Don’t base U.K.’s murder rate off the Home Office, go from the real numbers in the deaths register.

  146. Moreover, even using the UK’s data, if you look back to 1898, the murder rate per 100k people has not change much over 120+ years. The murder rate in UK has always remained between about 1.2 to 2.0 per 100k people. They banned machine guns, then pump shotguns, then handguns, then bb guns, and now toy bubble gum guns and the murder rate is still around 1.4 per 100k — right in the range of the over than 120 year average.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/historical-crime-data

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